Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

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Mike Walsh
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Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by Mike Walsh »

Send me a PM if you want a copy of 12" wheel standards used in the midwest.

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LVRR2095
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Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by LVRR2095 »

Personally.....I would leave it at 12- 5/8" gauge. There aren't that many 12" gauge railroads around either....and how often will you be packing it up and taking it anywhere other than your property?

Other than a very small number of 12" gauge Internationals and Ottaways there aren't enough 12" gauge steam railroads around to be worth changing the gauge.

Keith
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Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Keith, yep, I've sort of been thinking along these same lines. My primary concern is deciding on a gauge standard now, so that the consist of several cars and 800' of track I plan to lay down this fall and winter, with another 1500' or so latter on, doesn't have to be regaged latter on. That would be a real nuisance. Per below, I think I will leave as is- for now.

Per Dick's suggestion about possibly installing new tires, I checked out the lower frame today, closely inspecting both drivers, brake hangers, frame, and boiler. Turns out someone made the boiler a bit oversize. The fire box is to close to the drivers to accommodate any reduction in gauge - in fact the drivers are set hard at 12 3/4" gauge, with the inside of the flanges considerably less than 1/16" clearance with the sides of the boiler. The pony truck is a solid 12 5/8", and Mr. Campbell designed the engine to be 12 5/8", so I can only surmise when he built, or received the boiler from another shop, it must have been done slightly oversize, causing him to widen the drivers the extra 1/8". To bad he didn't send it back and tell 'em : "Do 'er over, Boys!" But, for whatever reason, didn't happen.

I also looked closely at turning down the inside of the flanges to move the driver gauge into 12 5/8" to be consistent with the leading truck. But all the flanges are only .250 width as is. Which doesn't leave much left on the wheel. So at this point I don't see any value in making narrower flanges with 112 year old wheels, just to achieve the 1/8" reduction in gauge. Whether 12 3/4" or 12 5/8", as Keith mentioned, there aren't any other tracks of this gauge. So at the moment, I think I will leave as is. 12 3/4" it will be!

To mitigate the whole cobble, I do think I will try turning the axles on the new tender to allow for dual gauge - 12 3/4" and 12". I think placing a .375" spacer between the wheels and shoulders of the axles, on both sides of the trucks, will allow gaging the wheels to 12" in the future, should the boiler ever get replaced; with the spacers flipped around to the proud side of the wheel set- to fill up the vacated space.
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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steamin10
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Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by steamin10 »

Glenn: Just a thought. I think you are overthinking the question. Were it me, I would go ahead and make the tender wheels and axles straight up to what you have, leaving ample shoulders on the axles to be trimmed for a re-gauge, should the new/old boiler ever allow the drivers to be reworked to smaller gauging. Overall, it may be the engine was never run because of this flaw, as 12 inch was available through this time period, and you may be seeing the survivor of a Murphy's constant that prevented operation at the time. Anyway, I would move forward with what is, being conversion is doubtful. I beg the question of going the other way, maybe 14 inch track. but that is uncommon now, and I only know of one, that is Heston Indiana, that has the remains of Chicago's Kiddieland equipment, passed through Elliot Donelly.

If this is truly a Historic piece, preservation into he future should be considered with minimal modification. But of course you own it, and may do as you please.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
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Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by FLSTEAM »

I can think of three 12" railroads and no 12 5/8" ones.

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Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by NP317 »

Glenn:
Given the wide firebox and the resulting gauge limitation,
you now have a possible historic "goof" to do with as you wish!
This will be a fun project to watch, as you progress!
~Russ
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Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by LVRR2095 »

FLSTEAM wrote:I can think of three 12" railroads and no 12 5/8" ones.

John B.
I believe that there will be 12-5/8" gauge at the House of David Restoration (Benton Harbor, Michigan) as one of the owners has several original Cagney locomotives of 12 - 5/8" gauge.
But unless you plan on attending meets, the gauge is irrelevant.
And if a 12 - 5/8" gauge track were to be built.....hopefully some of the remaining 12 - 5/8" gauge Cagneys will come out of hiding!
Keith
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Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Started to free up all the frozen parts on the engine. The rear drivers moved a smidge bit not much. Probably need to be dropped out of the frame and the bearing surfaces and journals cleaned up.

so, to get at the rear drivers, decided to start small, and got side tracked into removing the port (left) brake assembly and started cleaned up the brake pads, hanger and cylinder. The cylinder is just clamped to the frame and came off fairly easily- although needed a little encouragement from the handy, all purpose propane torch and liberal applications of penetrating oil. A taste of things to come no doubt.

The picture below shows the brake cylinder and pads in place:
image.jpg
This photo shows the brake cylinder mounting assembly, as I was removing it from the frame.
Cylinder clamped to vertical frame member between drivers
Cylinder clamped to vertical frame member between drivers
Here is the frame member, sans brake assembly. the frame appears to be coated in red lead, then painted black. Might explain why I've been seeing a red rust looking layer under the black paint I've been wire wheel brushing off some of the parts.
Frame member
Frame member
Bellow is a top view showing the brake cylinder mounting bracket. The cylinder and front mounting plate are cast as one unit. the rear bracket is drilled and tapped to accept threaded rod. Two threaded rods, one each side of the cylinder protrude through the cylinder bracket and clamp the assembly tightly to the vertical frame member between the drivers. when the brake cylinder is charged with steam, the cylinder rod pulls up into the cylinder pulling the brake pads into contact with the drivers and flanges of both front and rear drivers.

A fascinating detail is that the brake pads are grooved on the inside edge to completely enclose the flanges- so that when braking, the pads grip the thread and the flanges. The pads extend maybe .250'' beyond the inboard edge of the flange.
brake cylinder mounting bracket
brake cylinder mounting bracket
Brake Activation
So far I have no idea how the brakes are supposed to be activated. It appears each cylinder operates independently of the other. The steam feed lines to each cylinder are missing, but probably are supposed to be plumbed into the plenum mounted on the back wall of the boiler. Here is where the lines are meant to attach to the cylinder:
brake actuator sub assembly, and steam intake port
brake actuator sub assembly, and steam intake port
I need to take a closer look at the back head of the boiler and figure out if there is or was some lever set up to activate both brakes at the same time. so far i don't see one... Also don't see a clean way to route the steam line down to the intake port- without exposing the line to the outward side of the drivers and frame. Maybe the Chicago Museum of Transportation and Industry will be kind enough to send me a close up of the brakes and drivers on the real McCoy- although that seems a long shot.
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Got the brake assembly disassembled and cleaned up - back in working order.

Strange bit of rust like substance in the casting - its an iron casting and the rust was very bright orange- never seen anything like it. After cleaning it out the cylinder walls were mostly bright and fresh, with 1/2'' band of pitting and light corrosion just above the piston center of the casting. The debris almost looks like a dose of red lead was painted into the the inside of the cylinder as a preservative- I am speculating here, as it looked sort of like dried flaky paint. certainly some rust also, so Big Mystery! Looks much worse than it is. The cylinder works fine now. The other side is next, then on to figuring out how to activate from the engineer's position.
brake cylinder with orange residue
brake cylinder with orange residue
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
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Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Got sidetracked a couple of weeks ago with an Ottaway came up for sale about 20 miles from me. The loco has been in the PNW since the mid 1960's, but very much under the radar in private hands, at a private track. Although a few miles from the KLS club track on the Kitsap Pennisnula, nobody knew about the train until the owner emailed the club and asked if anybody was interested. So now Iam the proud owner of 'Bessie', ex 'Cinder Ella', Ottaway #1065, sold March 15, 1950 to Mr. James Harris, of Wappingers Fall, NY. The engine is in pretty good shape, having been rebuilt twice - once by the early day Adriondaks live steam pioneer Mr. Frank DeSantis in the late '50's or early '60's, and again by Everett Engineering around 1986 - when the prior owner added a new boiler.

It needs some TLC in the paint department, but otherwise passed a club hydrotest with narry a creak, and I think could steam up tomorrow. I just need to lay down 7 or 800 feet of track to run on. Ahahaha. One more thing to add to the list.

So now, I am thinking about how to regauge the Campbell to fit 12" track... The Ottaway also came with two large ride in cab Diesel engines. Actually one is gas powered, the other is electric- maybe a real electric - as I found a 6' electrical cab top pole with pull cord And a real live heavy gauge extension cord attached - just like on the old electric busses when cleaning out the shed this stuff has been stored in for 25 years. The prior owner has never run them so they are rusty and have flanking paint All over. Although the bodies are nicely done with galvanized sheet metal, riveted to metal frames. So interesting to contemplate digging into them further when a I get them home. My un-named backyard railroad now totals four locomotives and two rolling stock - a 10' Ottaway 'Pullman' riding car and a 12' drop bed flat car welded up by a fellow who retired from welding and repairing Nuclear submarines. Iam told the flat car is a bit 'overbuilt'...

In any event, I definitely have enuf work to keep me busy until I am 125 years of age.

Here are a few pics...
Attachments
Bessie as she sits in the rainforest
Bessie as she sits in the rainforest
image.jpg (42.45 KiB) Viewed 11893 times
Ready for the long haul!
Ready for the long haul!
image.jpg (41.67 KiB) Viewed 11893 times
Cinder Ella in 1965
Cinder Ella in 1965
image.jpg (46.47 KiB) Viewed 11893 times
back in the Glory Days- brand new in 1950
back in the Glory Days- brand new in 1950
Last edited by Glenn Brooks on Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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steamin10
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Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by steamin10 »

Interesting: I am jealous. I like big models with real pipe and fittings rather than teeny stuff for my ham hands and gorilla grip on things.

I can see it will change the motivation to standardize to 12 inch. Maybe you should consider track that is 12 5/8. I wonder if the 12 incher can stay on the rails with the wide gauge.

Alternately, can you fit wide tires to the drivers, that would hug the boiler, and correct the gauge problem? Just thinking out loud.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Albert S. Campbell's 12" gauge 1902 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Big Dave, yep, me to. 12" is just small enough to put around the house, yet big enough to be very stable and carry substantial loads of needed. Although after pulling and moving 10,000# of 12 pound rail, and hundreds of 4x5 x 24" ties, I've developed a new appreciation for skinny little, light weight 1" aluminum rail and loco's that run on it.

Very plausible idea about moving the tires, maybe widening the track... Dick Morris, up in Alaska suggested something similar - they did that on the Prototypes running on the Alaska railroad in the old days, to provide a bit of clearance when ice closed up the switches in winterapparently. I've thought about this briefly, but haven't looked at the Ottaway closely enuf yet to see if sufficient room exists to move the tires farther apart on the drivers. I load the Ottaway using temp rails spaced wide apart- maybe 12 5/8" +. Cheap and dirty set up. It looked sketchy pushing the loco on the wider gauge. But certainly worth more experimentation.

I suspect moving the flanges and tires would require either lengthing the axles to push the Rods outwards - an unwelcome prospect - or, maybe somehow moving the flanges out to increase gauge, but turning down the outside edge of the tires. Resulting in narrower tire contact on the rail, but wider gauge. May be doable, albeit a bit weird to contemplate.
Last edited by Glenn Brooks on Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:57 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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