Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

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cbrew
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by cbrew »

surface rust shouldnt cause you any issue.

tyleire wrote:Appreciate the info Cary.

I opened up the cylinders and found some slight rust patches on the engineer's side though it seems to be rubbing off for the most part. Hopefully it shouldn't be a problem. Thankfully the fireman's side is clean.
20151029_162559.jpg


Working on the tank again. Removed the corroded rivets and drilled new holes in the aluminum angle to be held in place by the cleco clamps. Yes, the new angle is wider than the original as the screw holes were so close to the edge on the original I figured it wouldn't hurt to beef it up a bit.

I had read you should start drilling from the center and move out, however I didn't remove the original C clamps which I think encouraged some buckling. Ugh. At least it isn't too serious.
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.
tyleire
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by tyleire »

Thanks guys. I managed to get the hand pump to work without being submerged thankfully. Overflow is now the primary issue with a plastic insert tank. I've thinking of an aerosol foam sealant or flexible rubber to sit on top of the insert tank to seal out water when overfilling occurs. I imagine the likelihood of water getting outside the insert tank is pretty high and I of course don't want it to sit inside the tender rusting it again so I think I'll move forward with water sealing the whole thing whether I end up using an insert tank or not. I'm looking at POR-15 (I understand it works well with the small bit of rust I couldn't remove from the tank) as a base coat for the interior followed by some kind of truck bedliner material and epoxy primer for the exterior. Or epoxy primer inside and out and bedliner material over that. Another option is gas tank sealer. I don't know. Many options out there.
20151208_163409.jpg
20151208_163352.jpg
The rivets arrived. I used a rivet squeezer to set them due to the tight clearance in the front legs of the tender. My brilliant idea of using a wider angle than originally used caused many problems with the small mouth of the squeezer but I managed and only screwed up like 5 rivets in the process.

Just need to fix the top few rivets that support the angle for the lid, drill out and tap the broken screws that secured the tender lid, and then prep for painting. Topcoat will probably be Duplicolor Engine Enamel Low Gloss Black. I'm liking the potential of the paint to hold up to higher temps without the need for oven curing.
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Greg_Lewis
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by Greg_Lewis »

tyleire wrote: ...
I think I'll move forward with water sealing the whole thing whether I end up using an insert tank or not. I'm looking at POR-15 (I understand it works well with the small bit of rust I couldn't remove from the tank) as a base coat for the interior followed by some kind of truck bedliner material and epoxy primer for the exterior. Or epoxy primer inside and out and bedliner material over that. Another option is gas tank sealer. I don't know. Many options out there.
....
Well, a gas tank sealer is made for sealing tanks. A truck bed liner is not made for that. If you use a tank sealer you wouldn't want any undercoat. I used KBS Gold Standard in mine and it sticks like it was part of the metal. Good prep is key. The metal should be as clean as you can get it and a little sanding with some 80 grit to give it some tooth helps. But the tank sealer is designed to handle some rust as long as you follow the directions for prepping.

What I'd do is seal the whole thing with tank sealer and fill it with water and then decide if you need an insert tank. In either case I'd put some baffles in there to keep the sloshing down.
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 35 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.
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Pipescs
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by Pipescs »

Great progress. Hang in there.....
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
redneckalbertan
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by redneckalbertan »

Another thought for the insert tank and issue of over filling would be to place the insert up on blocks so the water that does get in there is free to move around. Drilling some holes in the tender to allow it to drain out.
tyleire
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by tyleire »

I like the idea of elevating the tank for drainage.

Still recovering from the holidays but finally made it out to the garage to work on the tender while El Nino dumps everything he's got on Los Angeles.
Greg_Lewis wrote:Well, a gas tank sealer is made for sealing tanks. A truck bed liner is not made for that. If you use a tank sealer you wouldn't want any undercoat. I used KBS Gold Standard in mine and it sticks like it was part of the metal.
The KBS Gas tank Sealer website actually specifically answers someone's question about using the product for live steam here https://www.kbs-coatings.com/Auto-Fuel- ... r-Kit.html
The application is weird for an open tank though. I apparently have to seal it to wash and etch it before I can seal it, the sealer can't be applied with a brush, it must be dumped in at once and shook around until hardened and you can't add another layer later on if it begins to leak, you must strip it out and start over. PontiacGuy's method of epoxy primer plus bedliner sounds great as it offers an added layer of protection, assuming the bedliner will hold up and remain somewhat flexible. I'm torn between both though this rain will allow me to take a bit more time to decide.

I managed to grab a copy of that January 1977 issue of Live Steam magazine to get a better look at that photo (thanks again Benjamin Maggi). It looks pretty close to mine right down to the cardboard steps they glued to the bottom of the pilot. Only thing different is the smokebox door number plate (mine is round, not rectangle) and the safeties on top in some kind of casing. Everything else almost identical.
From the January 1977 issue of Live Steam magazine
From the January 1977 issue of Live Steam magazine
redneckalbertan
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by redneckalbertan »

tyleire wrote:PontiacGuy's method of epoxy primer plus bedliner sounds great as it offers an added layer of protection, assuming the bedliner will hold up and remain somewhat flexible.
I can't comment on bedliner in this application but I can say that I have a truck that had bedliner sprayed in in Dec. '06, half the time since then it has been in a garage the orther half outside. I would still describe the bedliner as pliable, it's still soft enough to push your fingernail in a little bit when it's warm.

I believe the liner was sprayed in by Linex... I don't know if that makes a difference or if there are different brands or formulations of the spray in liner.
tyleire
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by tyleire »

Applying KBS Tank Sealer
Applying KBS Tank Sealer
Finally back to the tender after work pulled me away for 6 weeks to shoot another feature (I work in the film business). Anyway, I decided to go with KBS Fuel Tank Sealer kit. After cleaning and prepping the tank per the instructions, I poured the can of sealer into the tank and started tilting the tank around to even out the sealer. The sealer material was so thin it flowed right through the cracks at the base of the tank walls and out the other side which I just let dry, planning to later remove the excess with paint stripper. The material expands as it dries, so after drying for 3 days and a water test, it appeared to actually do a good job of sealing everything up. Success!

...Then I went to clean up the excess sealant from around the base. Water tested it again... FAIL. There are now three leaks around the coal bunker area which aren't bad but show the sealant probably isn't water tight in certain places. (The directions warned about getting the sealer too thick) I've tried to spot seal a few pinhole areas inside the tank where I thought the leaks might be originating with silicon sealant with no luck, next I'll try sealing the outside. If that doesn't work, I'll move forward with the plastic insert tank.
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Greg_Lewis
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by Greg_Lewis »

I think you can make this work. As you discovered, silicone isn't the right sealant for this. I've discovered many folks in the trades moving away from silicone for various reasons, and you've found one. KBS makes an epoxy putty called NuMetal. I'd call them and see if it will adhere to the tank sealer. If so, be sure to get every last molecule of the silicone off the tank sealer surface. Dunno what's best to use for that, but I'd be sure to get it well cleaned. Then I'd sand the leak areas with 80 grit to provide some tooth for the epoxy to adhere to.

The tank sealer is a polymeric isocyanate, and I don't know if JB Weld will adhere to that, but JB Weld is my go-to stuff for most anything that requires filling a gap. You could call them to check compatibility as well.
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 35 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.
tyleire
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by tyleire »

Thanks Greg, I managed to find an epoxy that seems to bond well with the sealer. Tested it again and no leaks thank goodness.

I spent some time last week to prep and paint with a de-grease/phosphoric acid etch/etching primer/top coat process. I don't have much experience painting metal and I found spray can painting to be a learning experience. Holding the spray can too far away left a granulated, rough surface on the metal, and too close to the surface caused the paint to run, which I definitely didn't want. It's not perfect, but it worked out ok. I used the Duplicolor Low Gloss high heat paint for the tender so it would match the locomotive later, but after doing some tests, Low Gloss Black looks remarkably close to your common Satin Black which might have better bonding capabilities. Time will tell how durable this paint is. At a later time I will cut a new top for the tender tank as this one is bent up with rust scars then replace the filler hole with the Allen mogul water hatch.
Fresh coat of paint. Greasy hand prints added later.
Fresh coat of paint. Greasy hand prints added later.
Turning my attention to the locomotive to figure out a solution for the missing ash pan and grates. You'll notice there isn't much room to build a pan over the eccentric straps... or under them, or anywhere else.
20151115_213923.jpg
I mocked up a very rudimentary model up in Google Sketchup I thought might work after taking measurements. There are notches cut into the front of the pan to slide into the existing tabs on the bottom of the firebox. There would be a trap door on the bottom of the pan to dump ash, and the whole pan could drop out via a latch secured to the frame in the rear.
steam engine ashpan v2.jpg


Going to make a physical mockup and take it to the club and see what the guys think next week.
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PeterCraymer
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by PeterCraymer »

I know that you want to catch all the ash, but I would not extend the legs up into the firebox. You need space for fresh air to be drawn in through the grates for the fire. It will not only help your steaming, it will help the longevity of your grates. On my 10-wheeler, the ash pan is attached to the frame and not the boiler to allow a 3/16" gap all the way around. The ash falls down and not out. No problems. Just $0.02.

Peter
tyleire
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by tyleire »

PeterCraymer wrote:I know that you want to catch all the ash, but I would not extend the legs up into the firebox. You need space for fresh air to be drawn in through the grates for the fire. It will not only help your steaming, it will help the longevity of your grates. On my 10-wheeler, the ash pan is attached to the frame and not the boiler to allow a 3/16" gap all the way around. The ash falls down and not out. No problems. Just $0.02.
Because the eccentrics extend almost to the base of the firebox, it seemed easier to attach the pan up inside the firebox. There's just too little clearance to attach the pan to the frame unless I build the pan in an upside down 'V' shape in the middle to clear the eccentrics.
20151114_171721.jpg
Would drilling holes to allow for air into the sides of my current design work? ...Though I'm really not crazy about the top of my pan directly supporting the grates in my current design. I imagine sheet metal that close to a heat source would burn up pretty quickly.
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