Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

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PeterCraymer
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by PeterCraymer »

Judging from what can be seen in the video, the engine is only running on the fireman's side (opposite the photographer). The valve rod isn't moving at all. The hole you have circled is a lubrication hole. Maybe run the engine a little slower and we can see better. My guess is that that crank (also in the far left of your circle) that transmits the motion from inside the frame to the outside isn't doing so. Where you see a pin, it should be a split pin or roll pin. It may have sheared allowing the crank to work back and forth without moving the crank on the outside. The two cranks should be 180 degrees apart - directly opposite each other. can you move the crank on the outside that is connected to the valve rod? On my Allen engine, I silver soldered those cranks so they couldn't shear the pin.

Peter
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cbrew
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by cbrew »

i echo Peter here,
I can see the pin on the outside, so i would grab ahold of the valve rod and see if you can move it back and forth by hand.
if you can, watch the inside half of the bell crank, if its not moving, you found your issue,
it if does move. start looking for the link block, they have been known to escape and find home somewhere along the right away.

I will say, for only running on one side, she seemed to be smooth,, have you pulled the front cylinder heads or valve covers off yet?
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.
tyleire
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by tyleire »

PeterCraymer wrote:My guess is that that crank (also in the far left of your circle) that transmits the motion from inside the frame to the outside isn't doing so.

Hit the nail on the head. That's exactly the problem.
PeterCraymer wrote:can you move the crank on the outside that is connected to the valve rod? On my Allen engine, I silver soldered those cranks so they couldn't shear the pin.
Yes I can easily move the valve rod back and forth by hand. I think the problem is the crank you mentioned above. The interior crank doesn't have a pin so I guess it'll probably need to be re-soldered. That doesn't sound too difficult to repair! Many thanks, gentlemen!
cbrew wrote:I will say, for only running on one side, she seemed to be smooth,, have you pulled the front cylinder heads or valve covers off yet?
Not yet, but I did open up the cylinder drain cocks and about a 1/2 cup of oil drained out. Sure enough, they were clogged.
Cylinder drains after sitting for 30 years
Cylinder drains after sitting for 30 years
Deformed cylinder drain diaphragms
Deformed cylinder drain diaphragms
The plastic diaphragm valve design is interesting. I didn't realize the amount of steam force required to operate them until I took them apart. Mine aren't cracked but do look a little deformed and stiff. Wondering if I should replace them with a teflon based plastic as someone mentioned in another thread.

Now to fix a few more leaks...
20151017_091713.jpg
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steamin10
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by steamin10 »

Wassat? More leaks no doubt, really? Howdat split that line? Winter freeze inna garage?

How about rust, when sitting in the cylinders, or valves

Laters...
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
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cbrew
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by cbrew »

Morning, this maybe a good option for repairing the cylinder drains,
http://www.mcmaster.com/#viton-fluoroelastomer/=zg6jy7

It will be interesting to see what the inside of the bores and valve surfaces look like, but if the oil that poured out was not a odd color or stank you may be in luck
I am assuming the boiler passed hydro?
have you pulled the blow down valves to look in the mud ring area of the boiler.
also if the boiler is based on the Allen design, the dome should be remove able.
it would not hurt to pop the lid and have a look inside.

keep sharing !

Chris
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.
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Greg_Lewis
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by Greg_Lewis »

Jumping back to the tender:
Why don't you make a plastic insert tank? It wouldn't be hard to do and you can forget about leaks, rust, and sealing compounds.

And if you really want to seal it, why not use a gas tank sealer? Sealing tanks is what this stuff is made for in contrast to truck bed liners and so on. If the metal is really clean, tank sealer will adhere well and should solve your problems. One that I've used with good results is KBS Coatings Gold Standard. This stuff does not come off.
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 35 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.
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Pipescs
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by Pipescs »

And if you can't find a plastic tank that fits the area you have to work with, you might consider having a local shop make you up a stainless insert tank that fits in inside the walls an top cover. You can sit the SS Tank directly on the frame and do away with your rusty bottom sheet.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


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Benjamin Maggi
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by Benjamin Maggi »

I was just reading the January 1977 issue of Live Steam magazine and on page 41 is a large advertisement for the sale of what I think is your engine. It was numbered 609 at the time, and was being sold by a K.V. Hackman of Arcadia, California.

I would note (though you probably know by now) that the handrail on the front of the smokebox on your engine as it currently sits is upside down.
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tyleire
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by tyleire »

Benjamin Maggi wrote:I was just reading the January 1977 issue of Live Steam magazine and on page 41 is a large advertisement for the sale of what I think is your engine. It was numbered 609 at the time, and was being sold by a K.V. Hackman of Arcadia, California.

I would note (though you probably know by now) that the handrail on the front of the smokebox on your engine as it currently sits is upside down.
Wow, great find! Now THAT looks exactly like my engine! Looks like Kenneth Vernon Hackman was an inventor of some sort, I found several patents registered in his name. Appears he passed in 1984.

Lol yea I was staring at the engine one day and thought something didn't look right. Corrected it a few weeks ago.
Greg_Lewis wrote:Jumping back to the tender:
Why don't you make a plastic insert tank? It wouldn't be hard to do and you can forget about leaks, rust, and sealing compounds.
I thought about that but couldn't figure out how I could form it around the hand pump, drain, and welded valves located around narrow areas at the front of the tender. I even found some interesting heat-moldable plastic called thermoplastic. http://www.theengineerguy.com/Wonderfle ... -x-55.html But again I have no idea how I'd be able to work around the drains and welded fittings in such a tight area. It just seems like much more effort to seal off compared to truck bed liner. I think some kind of sealant straight on the walls might be a feasible challenge and prototypical. (even though no one will ever see it)

At this point I'm planning on riveting the sides of the tank back to the base via steel angle just as it was originally built. Reading up on solid riveting and saving for the necessary tools currently.
cbrew wrote:Morning, this maybe a good option for repairing the cylinder drains,
http://www.mcmaster.com/#viton-fluoroelastomer/=zg6jy7

It will be interesting to see what the inside of the bores and valve surfaces look like, but if the oil that poured out was not a odd color or stank you may be in luck
I am assuming the boiler passed hydro?
have you pulled the blow down valves to look in the mud ring area of the boiler.
also if the boiler is based on the Allen design, the dome should be remove able.
it would not hurt to pop the lid and have a look inside.
I didn't notice any weird color or smell other than some dirty oil in the right cylinder. I'll check out the valves when I get a chance. Yes the boiler passed hydro. We poked around the flues and part of the crown sheet and it looked pretty clean. Mud ring area would be good to see though.
Cary Stewart
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by Cary Stewart »

Ken Hackman was a long time member of LALS. Yes, he was an inventor. His factory did special coatings. He came up with one that was used on the moving surfaces of submarine planes. It was proprietary and was top secret. Only he new the formula. The last engine I saw him run was a 1.5"/7 1/2" gage NYC Hudson and train. One of two I believe built by another member, Dick Bagley. An interesting thing about both of these is that initially they had water hydraulic brakes on the whole train. Water, not being very compresable provided many leaks in the train lines. Fun stuff if you happened to be standing at a coupling and something let lose. Kit Carson was the owner of the second one. I don't think those water brakes lasted very long.
Cary
tyleire
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by tyleire »

Appreciate the info Cary.

I opened up the cylinders and found some slight rust patches on the engineer's side though it seems to be rubbing off for the most part. Hopefully it shouldn't be a problem. Thankfully the fireman's side is clean.
Small rust patches in cylinders
Small rust patches in cylinders


Working on the tank again. Removed the corroded rivets and drilled new holes in the aluminum angle to be held in place by the cleco clamps. Yes, the new angle is wider than the original as the screw holes were so close to the edge on the original I figured it wouldn't hurt to beef it up a bit.

I had read you should start drilling from the center and move out, however I didn't remove the original C clamps which I think encouraged some buckling. Ugh. At least it isn't too serious.
Waiting on the new rivets
Waiting on the new rivets
The eBay round head rivets I ordered were way too soft for hammering or squeezing and looked awful with beveled edges on the head that didn't sit flush against the sheet metal, so I'm waiting on tougher rivets from Hanson Rivet to arrive next week.

I'm revisiting the idea of a plastic insert tank. If I can find a way to use it with my hand water pump (which I believe is designed to operate submerged) I should be able to figure out everything else.
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Greg_Lewis
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Re: Restoring a modified Allen 2-4-0 barn find

Post by Greg_Lewis »

tyleire wrote: I'm revisiting the idea of a plastic insert tank. If I can find a way to use it with my hand water pump (which I believe is designed to operate submerged) I should be able to figure out everything else.
Something to think about: If you can get the pump to work outside the tank, make the plastic tank to fit without taking space in the front legs. Put the pump in one side and use the other side for the headlight battery. You will lose a little water capacity but probably not enough to make a big difference.
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 35 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.
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