2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

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steamin10
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Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by steamin10 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:16 am

It is so, that the common freight wheel, or disc wheel, does not allow internal chucking, as a spoked wheel might. Most engine drivers dont allow for inside chucking either. My mandrel for such engine drivers has a hard pin to engage the casting, and prevent slip (spin) on the mandrel for sufficient power transfer for shaping. Common freight wheels are a bear, as an aggressive cut can spin the piece on the mandrel, possibly changing the setup. It only allows scratching at the work.

I tend to shape the wheel back contour first, setting the critical back dimensions, flip, machine for front contour and thickness, bore, and finally finish the tread on the mandrel, using a formtool for the flange close to the tool holder. I prefer flange out, but have run them both ways. I get bored easy, so I run 4 wheels per operation for setup.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

Pontiacguy1
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Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by Pontiacguy1 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:55 am

Like Dave Said: You can't turn the flange and treads when you have to chuck the wheel by it's OD. Most steam locomotive or car wheels will not allow you to chuck them from the inside as yours appear to allow you to do. If you have them centered up like that, and they are chucked solid, by all means do ALL of the operations on it before you remove it, then go on to the next one. That will give you some good wheels that are concentric.

I've used a mandrel several times in the past to hold a wheel, and they work fine. You can't take super-heavy cuts, but it's a really good way to hold them unless you want to try to clamp them in a facing plate. More than one way to do anything, but you've gotta look at the diameter and shape of the wheels you are working with and see what they will let you do to hold them.

Brian Hilgert
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Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by Brian Hilgert » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:24 am

I didn't have the ability to chuck on the ID so I had to use a mandrel. I didn't have a problem with slipping, but I didn't push it either.

First started with facing the back
IMG_1186.JPG
Then flipped it to cut and profile the front.
IMG_1199.JPG
IMG_1214.JPG
Drilled and bored the hole
IMG_1212.JPG
Placed on a mandrel and finished the tread.
Finished wheel.jpg
I am a slow hobby machinist, and I do not push it by taking too much at once so a mandrel works good for me. I do like the mandrel because it gets the wheel out away from the chuck some. I do not use a flange tool so it helps me get behind the wheel.

BTW, I really like your castings, They do look nice! 8)

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jamespnelson
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Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by jamespnelson » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:01 pm

Thank you all for your input; It is greatly appreciated. I will start turning this week. Brian, very, very nice work on your wheels. Thank you for sharing your pictures. And thank you for the kind words about my castings. It was the first (and only) pattern I've made. It was quite a learning experience.

Jim
Project
2-1/2" Scale, Class C 65 Ton Shay

Bits of wisdom:
Ray's Rules of Precision: Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with axe.
"The art of medicine consists of amusing the patient while nature cures the disease.” ― Voltaire

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jamespnelson
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Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by jamespnelson » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:59 pm

Finally got out to the shop to do a little work today. I was able to face the first driver. The hub is countersunk 0.150" from the face of the wheel to accommodate the gear hub. I removed that much from the driver hub, and removing 0.100 from the right side journals I purchased from John Buckwalter. He completely removed the hub from the gear and secured it to the spokes of the wheel with screws, but my wheel casting doesn't allow that, as it has the prototypical spokes. So i'm going to retain the hub, though reduce it to only 0.250" and secure it to the hub with 3 screws, and key it to the axle with a 0.25" key. I've center drilled the hub, and next step is to drill and bore it to 0.748" and press fit it (heat he wheel and cool the axle). The groove on the face is the scale diameter of the actual wheel casting, to which the tire would be fitted. Probably and un-needed step, but a bit of a left over from my model railroading days where little details made a big difference. Then turn the wheel to final diameter and cut the tread. I'll post pictures of that soon, I hope!

Jim
Attachments
IMG_1195_edited-1.jpg
Faced Driver
Project
2-1/2" Scale, Class C 65 Ton Shay

Bits of wisdom:
Ray's Rules of Precision: Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with axe.
"The art of medicine consists of amusing the patient while nature cures the disease.” ― Voltaire

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steamin10
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Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by steamin10 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:34 pm

Nothing wrong with putting in details that dont make operational difference. This is a hobby, and you do what makes you happy, no matter how many rivets you count.

Along that line, I prefer older time equipment, that may be woodsy shop built, so I have a reason, (an escape from reality) to do it that way. I dont want a LOoong combine or coach. It will be short, but you can recognize what it is. It need not be board for board, a plywood box finished in strips, sells the vision,, without the weakness. The cabooses, (Cabeese?) with stoves and paint and water cups, are just works of art, and should not be exposed to stupid human tricks, from the unknowing. So my path is rough and tumble, make it work, make it strong. No fun sitting in the yard with a busted something or other. Like a Critter is tiny, but is about 4x normal size to make things work out, and live engines must have enlarged parts at points, or be too fragile to work.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

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jamespnelson
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Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by jamespnelson » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:26 am

I drilled and bored my first driver today. Went very well. I used a trick taught to me by a machinist friend of mine. I first drilled the hole with a 0.50" bit, then bored it with a boring bar to about 0.745", with a goal of 0.748' for a press fit on a 0.750" axle. His trick was to take a piece of rod, cut a slot with a bandsaw, and wrap some 65 or so grit emery cloth on it and finish out the last few thousands that way by hand. Worked like a champ! I upped the RPMs a bit to finish it a bit faster, and ended up with a hole exactly the size I wanted. Not real fancy. Next wheel I'm going to use my shortest boring bar, as I got a bit of chatter with this one.
Attachments
boring.jpg
finishing.jpg
Project
2-1/2" Scale, Class C 65 Ton Shay

Bits of wisdom:
Ray's Rules of Precision: Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with axe.
"The art of medicine consists of amusing the patient while nature cures the disease.” ― Voltaire

Harold_V
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Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by Harold_V » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:38 am

I have commonly polished by that method for years, but it comes with a risk of a variable diameter bore. It takes considerable skill to remove much stock and keep the bore straight. You're far better served to take the bore to size by boring, leaving a few tenths if you must (for polishing to size). In cast iron, assuming your tool is sharpened properly, you shouldn't have any trouble hitting size, as it, unlike many of the steel alloys, will respond to light passes.

Note that it's very easy to get a bell mouth by polishing.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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jamespnelson
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Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by jamespnelson » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:01 am

Harold,
I'll take that to heart and try it on the next wheel But definitely with the shorter boring bar that may give me a more precision.

Jim
Project
2-1/2" Scale, Class C 65 Ton Shay

Bits of wisdom:
Ray's Rules of Precision: Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with axe.
"The art of medicine consists of amusing the patient while nature cures the disease.” ― Voltaire

Harold_V
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by Harold_V » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:14 am

Good idea, Jim. A short bar is always best. If you're using carbide, do you have the ability to regrind? Part of your problem (with chatter) might be the less than acceptable grind on such bars. If your wheels are clean iron, they should machine quite nicely, although a bad edge on the tool can lead to a mottled surface and irregular machining. You should not be seeing any shiny spots in the bore if the tool is proper.

Seeing you're from Milwauikie, did you happen to have the pleasure of making Bill McReady's acquaintance? He was a master builder of engines. Sadly, he passed several years ago. A treasure of a human being, he was.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

hwboivin3
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Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by hwboivin3 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:38 am

Just curious as to what rpm you're using.

After struggling with some wheel castings that I had, I slowed my rpm down considerably.
I'll check mine, but I'm running in back gear. One thing that I noticed was that my tools last considerably longer and I can take much heavier cuts. When I was running at a higher rpm, my tool would dull rather quick and I would get chatter......or inconsistent cuts.

Harold_V
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Re: 2-1/2", 65 ton New Mexico Lumber Co Shay (Lima C/N 1762)

Post by Harold_V » Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:40 am

I'm curious if you used carbide, Harry. The reason I ask is a less than acceptable experience I had a long time ago, where I had a simple turn to make in gray iron. I grabbed the first tool that was near me and took a cut, only to have tip failure. The material acted as if is was slightly chilled. Sharpened the tool and went at it again, only to experience the same thing. Taking note that I was using a C5 grade, I switched to C2 and ended all the problems. The iron wasn't chilled at all, but was breaking down the edge quickly, most likely due to a trace of sand.

There's a lot to be said for slowing surface speed and increasing feed rate. It will often outwork faster speeds, and tends to give longer tool life in the bargain.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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