Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Where users can chronicle their builds. Start one thread and continue to add on to it.

Moderators: Harold_V, WJH, hwboivin3

User avatar
PeterCraymer
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:57 am
Location: Maysville, Ga.

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by PeterCraymer » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:20 am

Looking Good! It's good to see someone who is not afraid to learn, make mistakes, learn from those mistakes and keep moving forward all the while sharing those experiences with others. I scrounged a LOT of material to build my engine and tender. All of the tender tank, top and baffles are from picking through the scrap bins. My boiler jacket is made from the sides of old filing cabinets and the boiler bands are an old bandsaw blade with the teeth ground off and hose clamps welded to the ends. If there is a will, there is a way! Keep it up!

Peter

Pontiacguy1
Posts: 815
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:15 am
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by Pontiacguy1 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:25 am

Do yourself a favor and DO NOT fiberglass the inside of that tank! Use a paint-on type of gas tank sealer like Red Kote or something like that, but do not do the fiberglass! Over time, that fiberglass will start pulling away from the metal and will also develop small cracks which will let water seep in between the fiberglass and the steel tender shell. This will cause your tender tank to rust through, and you will be rebuilding it. Trust me, had a tank done that way that I had to re-work, and there were several sections that I had to cut out and re-make to get it usable. The fiberglass was an absolute mess.

Also, a piece of advice... Find somewhere in the middle of your tank, in a central location where it will be open underneath, hammer yourself a small depression in the bottom of the tank in that spot, and then weld or silver solder yourself a pipe fitting on the bottom so that you can put a drain valve in there that will drain the entire tank out at the lowest point. One of the worst things is to leave 1/4" or something like that of water inside of your tank. When you drain it, you want it to be as completely drained and dry as possible.
IMG_3091b.jpg
This is a tank that I re-did that had been lined with fiberglass. It was a pain to get it all out, and the resulting rust speaks for itself.

318J
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:27 pm
Location: Meramec Valley, MO

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by 318J » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:31 am

Thanks for the advice, I will definitely look into other alternatives for lining the tank. Today I installed the coal gate, so at this point it's ready to come home for the finishing work.
20170413_092413.jpg
20170413_090843.jpg
20170413_090826.jpg
I am thinking that I will use drive screws for the rivet detail, but am concerned about whether or not it will be water tight. Can anybody with experience give me some pointers? Thanks.
-Sam
Meramec Locomotive Company, SLFF Railroad
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
https://www.facebook.com/meramecloco

Kimball McGinley
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 2:13 pm
Location: Laguna Niguel CA

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by Kimball McGinley » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:08 pm

I hope the top is separable for access for maybe a hand pump, return line from axle pump, etc.? Regarding the "drain well" described above, use that as the main feed line to the loco, with a "T", and then put the drain cock below that "T".

User avatar
Dick_Morris
Posts: 2107
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:09 pm
Location: Anchorage, AK

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by Dick_Morris » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:38 pm

For those who follow in your footsteps - refrigerator doors and dishwasher fronts are sources for large pieces of stainless steel sheet. My piece from an old fridge is stil under a pile of snow, but I think it's .042 thick.

I used SS drive screws and Loctite industrial adhesive on my SS tender for a CP-173. After installing the drive screws I hit each one with a drop of wicking Loctite.

318J
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:27 pm
Location: Meramec Valley, MO

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by 318J » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:59 pm

Yes, the top is removeable. It fits quite snug, but pops off easy enough. I will add some bolts to hold it down as well.

I will also put holes in the top to accommodate the fill hole and a hand pump before I paint it.
-Sam
Meramec Locomotive Company, SLFF Railroad
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
https://www.facebook.com/meramecloco

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1244
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by Glenn Brooks » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:48 pm

318J wrote: I am thinking that I will use drive screws for the rivet detail, but am concerned about whether or not it will be water tight. Can anybody with experience give me some pointers? Thanks.
Nice job welding up the tender body. +1 for NO fiberglass liner. This would be a big mistake. My current and previous tenders were just painted and lasted 40 + years with no rusting. They had no impervious seal to trap water underneath the liner and cause corrision. You could use a metal etch like Ospho (phosphoric acid) on the raw surface, then a marine one part epoxy primer, followed by two coats of Interlux one part poly and be good to go for decades or more.

Regarding rivet detail, you might consider bedding the rivet/screws with 5200 marine sealant. This is great stuff for creating an elastic watertight bond. Used it for years on my commercial fishing boat in Alaska, and on ocean going sailboats with nary a leak. 4200 sets more quickly and can stripped off for replacement more easily.

Alternately, maybe consider mounting actual rivets into lengths of 1" x3/16" flat bar and spot welding or bolting these lengths onto the tank body like trim, or flashing. No multitude of holes in the tank frame to worry about. And the extra steel flat bar can add architectural design strength to the structure.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

User avatar
PeterCraymer
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:57 am
Location: Maysville, Ga.

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by PeterCraymer » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:23 am

For rivets on my tender, I used a combo of drive screws (not many), round head, slotted brass machine screws and mostly copper rivets from McMaster. I used short enough rivets that the didn't leave much inside when peened over. Where I was joining pieces, the back piece was countersunk to help the rivet seat and be flush. They largely will seal themselves, but if all this work is done before sealing the inside, then they will also be sealed by the same. My tank sides are stainless (again picked from the scrap pile) as well as the internal structure. I dulled too many drill bits and broke a number of 4-40 taps, but once cleaned well, I used the Rustoleum bedliner type stuff in a spray can to seal the inside and after 4 years, there is nothing even trying to come loose.
Peter

RCRR
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:53 am
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by RCRR » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:47 pm

Thanks for posting this build log...I've subscribed to your topic in case you post updates. The Allen 0-4-0 is definitely on my short list for a 1st build.

rkcarguy
Posts: 641
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by rkcarguy » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:58 pm

That looks good, always a bonus to be able to build big boy toys in school:)

Do you have access to any sheet metal brakes in the welding shop?
I always try to form as many bends as I can, instead of welding plates at every corner to eliminate warping. Beyond that, I'll often tack together the entire fabrication(keeping weld access in mind-sometimes you can't), and then hop from one side to the next doing even stitches of weld on each side.
As far as sealant, there is a product called boatlife caulk, it dries to an O-ring type consistency and it's moisture cured(I literally had to setup a sprinkler on "mist mode" aimed at the stern of my boat overnight during the summer so it would set up after I remounted and sealed my trim tabs and depth/fish finder transducer!). Unlike 3M 5200, it is not a structural adhesive, just a sealer. I use it on my boat for things where I need a good seal, yet need to also be able to take things apart in the future. 5200 for example, if you were to bond metal to fiberglass, will often take the fiberglass with it if the metal item needed to be removed. I've also found it to get dry and chalky with cracks on the outside, while still uncured in the middle when I've taken things apart that were secured with 5200. Also, another minus, is corrosion seems to happen within the seam when ferrous metals are sealed with 5200. I guess I am not a fan of the stuff for most applications.

318J
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:27 pm
Location: Meramec Valley, MO

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by 318J » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:10 am

Unfortunately I did not have access to a brake, which was my original intent when building the tender tank.

This past weekend I began to fabricate an auxilary tender tank, which I redisigned to avoid long weld seams, which was my biggest mistake in fabricating the tender tank. The auxilary tender tank will have an internal frame, which will help brace it and add strength, and allow the tank to be largely riveted rather than welded (No Warping!). If everything goes to plan, the aux tender *should* come out square and at least half-way decent looking (unlike my previous rushed attempt at a tank).

As for contruction of the locomotive, I have all the material and castings for the frame. I find machining tedious and boring (Think I maybe choose the wrong hobby? hehe) so only one casting has been partially machined. I may end up outsourcing the frame fabrication.

I'll post pictures of my progress once there is something substantial to look at. A generous benefactor has offered his old lathe/mill and excess metal stock as well as several miscellaneous parts and wheels to the SLFF railroad, which is a massive help to the younger guys making up our organisation. Once I graduate from welding school this November, progress should accelerate since I'll (hopefully) have steady income and more time on my hands. Thanks for all of your interest, I haven't given up yet!
-Sam
Meramec Locomotive Company, SLFF Railroad
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
https://www.facebook.com/meramecloco

318J
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:27 pm
Location: Meramec Valley, MO

Re: Allen Models 0-4-0 Build- MS&S #14

Post by 318J » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:02 pm

This is the start of the auxilary tank frame, TIG welded angle iron and box tube perfectly squared and even form an exact form that will not allow warping out from the perfect angles. Steel sheets will be riveted and stitch-welded to the frame once it's completed.
20180129_140324.jpg
-Sam
Meramec Locomotive Company, SLFF Railroad
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
https://www.facebook.com/meramecloco

Post Reply