Building My 2.5" 20 Ton Shay

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Soot n' Cinders
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Re: Building My 2.5" 20 Ton Shay

Post by Soot n' Cinders » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:28 am

Thats a big change! One thing is you'll almost never be able to really load it up to capacity, mine is already that way and I only have 2 cylinders. I get the class C thing though, I'd love to build one of the West Side Lumber shays but that's a big locomotive in 2.5" scale.
If you do go with a 3rd cylinder, make sure the middle cylinder valve timing is set before you put the front one on. Once all three are on, the middle one becomes basically inaccessible. Not an issue with piston valve, but definitely with slide valves.
-Tristan

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-2.5" scale Class A 20 Ton Shay

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littleevan99
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Re: Building My 2.5" 20 Ton Shay

Post by littleevan99 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:43 pm

Part if me says do it, and the other part says don’t waste your time jumping into it too fast. Gramps thinks we should finish this one first, then go and do something different. I kind of have to agree with him.
1.5" scale CliShay
2.5" 20 ton Shay under construction
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littleevan99
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Re: Building My 2.5" 20 Ton Shay

Post by littleevan99 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:00 am

In doing a little more thinking on the matter I remembered that I have a full set of drawings for the 2.5" scale Mich Cal #2, and the engine on that is closer to what I'm looking for. With It better representing the 8x8 engine that was found on many 20 ton class b Shay's. If my calculations are correct the frame would need to be 4.3125" longer to accommodate the length of the crankshaft after the extra cylinder and valve gear are factored in. With that said I still don't know yet if the brake rigging placement needs to be adjusted, or if the truss rod brackets in the front need to be moved, though from the pictures I've found they do look like they are moved up with the front truck. Lastly, I do not believe that the boiler needs to be modified at all as it looks like Lima just stretched the frame to account for the engine length, and they left the boiler alone.

Here's some comparison shots of four 20 ton Shays, and I think that it shows the frame length being the only major change that can be seen from the outside:
cn-1580.jpg
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cn-1890.jpg
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Standard gauge with diamond stacks(Closer to how mine will look).
cn-1569.jpg
cn-1855.jpg
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Narrow gauge With tapered stacks.
1.5" scale CliShay
2.5" 20 ton Shay under construction
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Soot n' Cinders
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Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:24 pm
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Re: Building My 2.5" 20 Ton Shay

Post by Soot n' Cinders » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:31 pm

Yeah, I see what you mean. Looks like they just stretch the frame and brake linkages under the boiler and called it done. One thing to consider there is steam consumption. That 3 cylinder engine is going to consume more steam since notching up is pretty limited in scale. So then you would have to consider the fuel and load you want. For the 2 cylinder, wood is doable and coal is very good. If you burn coal you could probably handle the extra cylinder, but it would eat wood faster than you could get it in the door. If you want oil or propane though youre gonna have to find somebody who really knows how to set those up. I have seen guys stall out pulling bigger than normal loads because their burners/atomizer just couldnt put out enough heat.
I would say get in touch with Tim Szabo, John Buckwalter can do it, as hes building a 42 ton class B using Johns castings. Big difference there though because he has an extended wagon top boiler instead of the straight boiler of the 20-30 ton shays.
It doesnt seem like too much of a challenge to do the 3rd cylinder if you can figure out the base, thats going to be the real trick. If you can get that I think the rest of the shay will be easy. Thats what Id be thinking about while possibly putting the frame aside for now and working on the trucks since those dont change at all.
-Tristan

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-2.5" scale Class A 20 Ton Shay

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littleevan99
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Re: Building My 2.5" 20 Ton Shay

Post by littleevan99 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:24 am

Grandpa seems to think with good reason that I should built the three cylinder engine, then go and do the rest. Because, if it doesn’t pan out I can still do the two cylindee Shay without wasting anymore time.

Now, I’ve done some math to figure out the Mich Cal engine, and while I believe it having a smaller bore and stroke would eliminate the issue of running out of steam with the extra cylinder, I’m not to hot on how it looks after sketching it up with the third cylinder. Now I’m gonna try to add the third cylinder to John’s engine on paper, but first I’ll need to run some formulas on steam consumption to see if the stock boiler can handle it assuming I do those right. If all else fails I’ll just stick with the original engine and frame combo. Because, it still looks good, functions great, and is the reason I went with John’s design.
1.5" scale CliShay
2.5" 20 ton Shay under construction
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Soot n' Cinders
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Re: Building My 2.5" 20 Ton Shay

Post by Soot n' Cinders » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:34 pm

Sounds like solid advice to me!
-Tristan

Projects
-2.5" scale Class A 20 Ton Shay

Brian Hilgert
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Re: Building My 2.5" 20 Ton Shay

Post by Brian Hilgert » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:58 pm

My suggestion is if you want to build a 3 cyl shay, order the extra cylinder and cross head guide. Use Johns design for the 2 cyl., add a 3rd cylinder, fabricate the bottom bracket, offset the crank by 60 deg and build a 3 cylinder engine. Once you see the engine running on the work bench, that will give you motivation to work on the rest of the locomotive. Go to www.shaylocomotive .com and spend hours looks at class B NG shays and pick out one that you like and go after it. Sell your frame to another 20ton shay builder and start designing a class B. You can still use all of the casting that you purchased off of John.
Class B.JPG
I think I have a couple other class B side views if you need them

I started with John's casting but I am patterned my shay off of the Kelley Island 20 tonners. CN1855

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littleevan99
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Re: Building My 2.5" 20 Ton Shay

Post by littleevan99 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:02 am

Life has a way of changing things I guess. I started my first full time job(I'm thinking career now) back in January, and my grand plans for the Shay have kind of been tamed down. I've decided that since I don't have much time to work on it anymore that I'll just continue down the path that I had originally planned for it. So for the last six months I've made baby steps on the weekends when I can get over to grandpa's shop to work on it.

So far I've gotten the frame pretty much finished up, and it's looking good. I'm sure that it still needs a few things here and there, but for now I can say safely that it is mostly complete. Currently I'm working on the brake cylinder and the related brake rigging. As well as me and pops working on some functional brake valves for both of our Shay's. Our brakes will work like the real ones with the steam being used to apply and release them. So far the valves are a modified version of the brake valve on Nelson Riedel's website, and they've been changed from using a teflon seat to using stainless disc with a brass body that's been lapped together.
IMG_8133.JPG
The frame turned out rather nice, and the truss rods complete it.
IMG_8107.JPG
IMG_8159.JPG
Where I'm at with the brake cylinder.
IMG_8160.JPG
These were fun to make, started out with a brass bar and made the two end caps and the flanges for the cylinder.
IMG_8177.JPG
This is our test valve that it is brass on brass at the moment. The tops aluminum for this one due to brass being a little pricey for a prototype. The finished valve will use brass for the base and top with stainless for the disc.
1.5" scale CliShay
2.5" 20 ton Shay under construction
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littleevan99
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Re: Building My 2.5" 20 Ton Shay

Post by littleevan99 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:48 pm

I got the brake cylinder mostly finished off, but now I’m kind of lost on how to set up the rods. Should the rods be set so that when up against the stops the brakes are fully applied, or the other way so that when up against the other side they are fully released? The way the guides are made it’s one or the other.
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4B7C1EAB-C88E-4818-980A-021346E8F8D8.jpeg
This would be fully applied if set like this. Otherwise the brake cylinder runs out of stroke to extend the full length of the guide.
1.5" scale CliShay
2.5" 20 ton Shay under construction
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/littleevan99

Soot n' Cinders
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Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:24 pm
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Re: Building My 2.5" 20 Ton Shay

Post by Soot n' Cinders » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:00 pm

The way I have mine set is full release is almost the far end of the guided from the cylinder. That leaves plenty of wear allowance. Plus the breaks really shouldnt have that much travel, I think my pistons move maybe 1/2in between full release and full application.
-Tristan

Projects
-2.5" scale Class A 20 Ton Shay

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