Couple of Shorties

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NP317
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by NP317 »

Carl:
Thanks for posting your interesting project. Much to learn from you.
RussN
Rwilliams
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by Rwilliams »

Carl,

Just yesterday as I walked past coach #6 in the shop at Jamestown, I noted how well you recreated the curves in the end roof line. A am sure the members of the museum staff would be impressed with your efforts to model the equipment constructed back in 1902. Bring them out West anytime you want.

Perhaps make a nice YouTube video like Dave Szromba did with his stills to document his SP C-30 aboose build.

Robert
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NP317
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by NP317 »

Robert:
Just don't let your Shop Guys touch those model coaches.
They'd somehow break them for sure...
Russ
ccvstmr
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

BigDumbDinosaur wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:30 pm Can't wait to see it and its sibling being pulled by the Rutland.
BDD...that makes two of us. Might be a while, the Rutland tender is out of service for a makeover right now. Knew there was a leak between the tank and frame. Was not expecting to see so much tender deck rusting and pitting. However...when the loco and tender are back on the rails, looks like the cars will be used for "mixed" train service.
NP317 wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:43 am Thanks for posting your interesting project. Much to learn from you. RussN
Russ...you and everybody else is most welcome. Happy to share good news/bad news. Knowing someone else has been down a particular path before, can be a real morale booster when they're stuck on something. As some might say...copying is the sincerest form of flattery!
Rwilliams wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:39 pm Just yesterday as I walked past coach #6 in the shop at Jamestown, I noted how well you recreated the curves in the end roof line. A am sure the members of the museum staff would be impressed with your efforts to model the equipment constructed back in 1902. Bring them out West anytime you want.

Perhaps make a nice YouTube video like Dave Szromba did with his stills to document his SP C-30 caboose build. Robert
Robert...thank you! Well, if Chi Town to Jamestown was only 200 miles away...instead of 2000 miles away...would take you up on such an offer. Would be neat to see real and model #5 and #6 side by side. Perhaps someday when I'm making a casual West Coast jaunt...will have to see what can be arranged. As for a video with still photos...well, that's kinda what this is (with all the long-winded dribble to go with).

Thanx all for your interest. There more coming Chaski-way! Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

COLORING TIME

The roof was painted satin black. Using the heat activated adhesive to affix the denim followed by several paint applications...there was no doubt that roof COULD shed water in the event of rain. Still, would rather NOT get caught on a RR in a downpour (been there...done that).

Was now time to turn attention to the car body. Early on during the construction process, the car interior was painted a Rustoleum light gray. Here's a question for the board...do you know what color the walls are painted in a photographic dark room? Answer: white. Why: most people think you'd paint a dark room black. But white surfaces reflect light better than dark surfaces. Even with a red safety light in a dark room, once your eyes adjust...it's very easy to see around the room. For similar reasons...decided to paint the car interior a light color.

IMG_1392.JPG

Once the decision was made to build the Sierra shorties, figured I might as well paint my #5 and #6 green as well...even if the color wasn't an exact match. This time, selected Rustoleum gloss Hunter Green. Before any green paint touched the car sides, I wanted to run an experiment.

IMG_9874.JPG

What you see on the left...is green paint on raw wood (think I grabbed some old pine planks). In the center, painted the wood plank with Rustoleum Rusty Metal primer before covering with the green paint. Why rusty metal? You're right...there is no metal involved here. Wanted a non-white primer on the car to seal the wood first. Would be easier to cover a dark-er color primer than white. On the right, when the primer was dry, sprayed a coat of Rustoleum flat black primer of the red primer, before painting green. If there was going to be a problem with green paint coverage...would rather have black streaks and not red streaks. Besides...think the green paint over black primer makes the green look a little "richer". You be the judge. This is all part of the multi-step priming and paint finishing process. Have now used this method on several pieces of rolling stock.

Next step is to mask the car. Wanted to preserve the interior paint if possible. You know, when I first built my cupola caboose, there were several club members disappointed I painted over the natural wood finish. It was interesting, but...cars of any type need to be painted.

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When the car body was sufficiently masked...out came the quart can of rusty metal primer and a brush...shaken AND stirred. Used the brush bristles to work the primer into the plank grooves and any of the other wood trim corners.

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After the primer had dried and the car was now a nice rusty red looking color, grabbed a sanding sponge to sand all the primed surfaces. Used the beveled sanding sponges to sand each of the plank grooves. Maybe went up/down each groom 2 or 3 times. For these short cars...the sanding went faster than you think.

When the sanding was completed, used the shop vac to suck up the primer dust...wiped the surface down with a towel...maybe used a brush to clean out the plank grooves and used the shop vac once again to remove any last sanding dust particles. Now, had to finish masking off the rest of the car openings...including cardboard across the top of the car body.

IMG_2356.JPG

Guess if you were looking to make a reddish colored car, could simply clear coat the primer at this point and move on. No, still wanted to have green-ish shorties. Had to keep pushing forward.

The next step...pulled out the Rustoleum flat black primer and sprayed the entire car body. Didn't take long. Had the shop fan running to draw the mist out of the shop.

IMG_2360.JPG

Yes, it looks strange. Almost like a RR funeral car. But once the black primer had dried overnight (with the shop heater running), it was time to get some color on the car after all. Will pick up here next time. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

MORE COLORING TIME

Before the next spray paint application...it was time to set the resin cast window frames in place. All the window frames had been previously sprayed with a clear, Bull Dog automotive primer. Windows were then sprayed with flat black primer.

Window castings were inserted in each car window opening. Blue masking tape was applied around the window frame perimeter. Traced along the bottom edge of the window frame where it sat on the sill. This is where the contact cement would be brushed on. An alternative that was used on the coach...took a pencil to trace the window outline on the black primer and tried not to brush cement over the line.

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When each side window opening was coated with contact cement, the back side of the window "frame" and bottom edge of the window casting were also covered with contact cement. When dry, the window frame was set on the window sill in the car opening and pressed into place. Soon enough...

IMG_2366.JPG

When all the windows had been installed...NOW...it was time for some green paint! Green paint was applied in 3 steps. 1st...with the can angled to the left to get the left side of each groove. After 30-60 minutes...2nd...paint application was angled to the right to get the other side of the groove. After another 30-60 minutes...3rd...paint application was made "straight on". The car body was FINALLY green!

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The heat stayed on in the shop. After a couple days, the combine baggage and end door frames were masked and the frames painted gloss brown. The car kept disappearing under old newspaper. Good thing that was all recycled.

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And when the brown paint had finally dried...ALL the masking came off. Think at this point, the baggage doors were held in place with masking tape. Later on, wood cleats would be nailed inside the car body to hold the baggage and eventually the end doors in place. Installed the previously painted satin black door threshold plate and installed the baggage door handle and grab iron. Placed the roof on top and stood back...

IMG_2482.JPG

Still have one more "chapter" to add with more painting comments. The car is still a long way from finished. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

COLOR ME A DISASTER

Jumping ahead to the #6 coach, wanted to share something here. Within 4 weeks from the time the #5 combine was painted, the #6 coach was ready for the same body priming and painting. Sanded the bare wood body slightly. Cleaned the saw dust off. Masked around the car. Brushed on the reddish Rusty Metal Primer. Sanded that down. Masked any remaining door or window openings. Sprayed the car body with the flat back primer. And then, started with the green paint.

Was on the 3rd green paint application when I noticed...paint wrinkles on the window frames. OH CARP! Didn't have this problem anywhere else except the window frames. Don't know if this shows up in the photo.

IMG_2792.JPG

With the paint still wet, there was nothing to do. Decided to let the paint dry overnight. Come morning...things weren't looking better.

In discussing the issue with another Chaski contributor...surmised the problem was any one or combination of the following factors:
1) room temperature not warm enough
2) paint temperature not warm enough
3) spray paint applied too close to the car surface
4) spray paint applied too thick
5) didn't wait long enough between paint applications
6) some other misc. reasons.

Room temperature in the basement for painting was in the 68 to 70 deg range. About the same temperature when the combine was painted. With the shop heater on continuously, safe bet everything else in the shop was the same temperature...including the paint cans. Painting too close would also lead to paint coating too thick. Need to maintain about 12" distance from the car body. Re-coat times needed to be extended from the 30 minutes used before the disaster.

Another possible way to correct the spray...increase the can pressure to get better atomization of the spray. Okay...have an idea for this. With the 300 or 500 watt work lamp, would simply place the spray can about 8 to 12" in front of the lamp and turn the can every 5 minutes. In time, I was able to raise the can temperature to approx. 120 degrees. Temperature checked with a non-contact IR handheld temperature gun.

Getting too far ahead here. How were the wrinkles removed? Used small sanding blocks and fine grit sand paper...used a square end X-acto blade to shave the paint off the resin cast window frame...and used a machinist triangular scraper/deburring tool. With enough patience (arghhh) was able to remove the wrinkles and feather the painted surface down to the cast resin window frames. All totaled, some 15 of 20 windows were affected. Here's how the one coach side looked before primer work was initiated. This was the worst side of the car.

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Here's a close-up of the middle (3) windows after shaving, sanding and feathering the surface...

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Thank goodness for the signboard, the window sill and "chair rail" and the plank grooves as these provided natural breaks when the car sides were masked. While the original Bull Dog automotive primer might have been removed during the wrinkle removal, figured the fine grit sanding and paint feathering would provide a rough enough surface for the reapplication of the black primer.

After leaving the primer dry for 24 hours, I returned with the "warmed" green paint can to hopefully finish what was started. Held the can about 12" from the car surface. Applied lighter coats. And...waited maybe an hour between coats. The good news...evidence of the disaster was gone.

IMG_2838.JPG

Took several days to recover from that paint problem. Would hope I don't have to go thru that again (or anyone else have the same problem). Coming up...we'll get stuck on some graphics. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
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Greg_Lewis
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by Greg_Lewis »

Carl:
Could the windows have had any sort of mold release or other chemical on them?
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 35 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.
ccvstmr
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

GRAPHICALLY SPEAKING

When the car painting had been completed and the paint allowed to cure and harden, the car was ready for graphics. Have a friend that purchased a US Data cutter/plotter some years ago for cutting adhesive backed vinyl. Used the provided layout software to arrange the cut pattern. Rail Roman or Times New Roman are provided standard with the list of fonts. However, if you're looking for a specific RR font, you won't find those in the graphics software. Won't even find those on computer word processors.

Couple ways around this are to contact someone like Connie Miracle who specializes in RR graphics...OR...take a model RR car (the larger the better) and go to a sign shop. They can most likely scan the car side and import that image into their program for manipulation and eventual vinyl cutting. btw...1st time I applied vinyl to a piece of rolling stock was a tank car...back in 1994. After 26 years...there's no signs of the vinyl edges lifting. At least once a year prior to the club annual, all the rolling stock is run thru a "wash track" to clean off dirt and dust from the previous year. While the tank car had a smooth surface for graphics, have applied vinyl to several ribbed cars. Again, no vinyl lifting at the plank gaps.

When considering these shorty passenger cars, always had visions in my mind of old Pennsy passenger cars with the P E N N S Y L V A N I A railroad name stretched across the sign board. Since the model #5 was designed to carry a propane cylinder...the signboard was raised and therefore, had a full height signboard across the length of the car. On the real #5, the baggage compartment door interrupted the signboard. Now had 36" to stretch my road name across the side of the car. One nice aspect of passenger cars...there's no car data like on a freight car. So, graphics needs are greatly reduced by comparison.

With the fascia trim from the roof hanging down and blocking part of the signboard, figured out 3/4" high lettering would do the job and center that in the remaining visible signboard vertically. After the vinyl was cut, noticed the plotter had skipped a beat and the lines of text jumped slightly. Made a new file and printed what was needed to replaced the damaged lettering. Was then left to do my own "weeding".

Used a straight edge to draw a reference line under each line of graphics. Would use this line as a reference when the "good" sections of cut vinyl were ready to be spliced together. When the full line of graphics had been re-created, transfer paper was applied to the face of the vinyl. Two strips of graphics along with car numbers were cut and prepared to be applied to the car.

Word of advice...if you're going to pursue your own vinyl cutting...DO NOT skimp on the vinyl. Get good quality vinyl and that should eliminate most any cutter/plotter problems that might arise.

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Have better photos from the graphics install on the coach, so will jump ahead here once again.

Once the graphics distance above the sign board was determined, applied strips of masking tape to establish a reference line along the length of the car body. Since the strips of vinyl with backing paper and transfer paper were higher than the 3/4" lettering, cut "V" notches in the bottom of the strip of graphics...where there was space between names and aligned the reference line on the graphics with the top edge of the masking tape reference. Multiple pieces of tape were used to secure the top edge of the graphics.

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And yes, there was a horizontal center reference line established as well.

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When satisfied the vinyl graphics strip was properly aligned, had my wife lend a couple more hands. Once the graphics are lifted for backing paper removal...need to keep the vinyl away from the car surface until the vinyl can be "worked" from the top down along the entire length of the graphics strip. A plastic squee-gee was used like a scraper to work the vinyl onto the car surface and avoid trapping air bubbles under the vinyl. If you get a bubble, can poke the bubble with a pin and work the air out.

Once the vinyl had been rubbed flat on the car surface, then went back and peeled away the transfer paper. Best to pull the transfer paper away at as sharp an angle as possible so the vinyl lettering isn't accidentally lifted off the surface if not fully rubbed down. Then, after successful removal of the transfer paper...

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From this point, what's left? Details...and lots of them. Next time, will start working down the list of detail work that was done for #5 and #6.
Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
ccvstmr
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by ccvstmr »

Greg_Lewis wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:58 pm Could the windows have had any sort of mold release or other chemical on them?
Hi Greg...good observation. To answer your question...not likely. Why? After all the window flashing had been sanded off, the window frames were glass bead blasted to remove any mold separation powder used during the casting process. After the bead blasting, the windows were blown off with high pressure air. The Bull Dog primer was then applied.

Would add, didn't have a problem with the windows on the combine. So when it came to the coach, could only blame myself. Thanks for posting. Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!
Kevin S
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by Kevin S »

Mold release agent would not have caused the paint to wrinkle. Mold release agent would have caused what is called fish eyes, that is a crater where there would be no paint. possible causes of the wrinkling, the prior layer not fully cured the gassing off of solvents causing the wrinkling of the top coat. Most paints have a cross linking window when you can apply top coats where the top layer and the bottom layer will chemically bond with each other. There is also a window of time where you do not want to spray over the bottom layer when the paint is set but not cured. you might have sprayed in this time frame.
-Kevin S.
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Dick_Morris
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Re: Couple of Shorties

Post by Dick_Morris »

Several years ago I found a RR front on a web site of fonts and downloaded it for free. I don't have the file any more, but it's probably out there somewhere. A search for "railroad roman font free" turned up several.
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