GS-1, finishing up the hard way

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Mike Walsh
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Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by Mike Walsh »

Any type of vacuum leak can kill your injector.

Double check all lines, ensure there are no leaks. This includes the supply line as well. I have experienced this on 3/8" Penberthy injectors, and checking all fittings for leaks usually reveals a problem.

Mike
GS14403
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Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 8:58 pm

Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by GS14403 »

Mike Walsh wrote:Any type of vacuum leak can kill your injector.

Double check all lines, ensure there are no leaks. This includes the supply line as well. I have experienced this on 3/8" Penberthy injectors, and checking all fittings for leaks usually reveals a problem.

Mike
Hello Mike,

Thanks for the reply.

I have pressure and vacuum tested the lines, including the tender, replaced the water inlet and steam inlet lines to the injector, three times. I tried a ball valve attached to the top of the boiler where the current line is plumbed into and a separate line to the injector. All attempts have resulted in the same outcome, water flowing out the overflow. The injector has been checked inside and out several times. The injector from the WP Mike was also tried with the same results, it is also an economy injector purchased the same order as the one I am using. They are both brand new. The valve is the Superscale push/pull injector starting valve.

Donald
GS14403
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Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by GS14403 »

GS14403 wrote:Well...... This project has taken an unexpected turn for the worse. I believe I am the first and only person in the entire world that cannot get an economy injector to work. The steam line that originally had the valve on the turret has been re-routed directly from the top of the boiler and the valve mounted down by the injector. The union in the delivery line was removed and a straight piece of pipe was silver soldered in. The boiler check had the internal valve removed and an inline valve was installed at the injector, that is what it took to get the injector to work on the WP Mike. A waterline was attached directly to the injector and fed directly from a bucket of water eliminating the entire tender water supply circuit. I have run out of ideas and frankly have lost patience with this project.

Meanwhile the check valves for the axle pump were replaced after they started leaking again. A pair of brand new stainless bodied valves were ordered and installed.

The steam supply to the cylinder drain cocks tests good but the valves do not close.

Even with the 56% Silver Solder I could net get a good solder joint for the boiler check bodies and ended up returning to brass for the bodies.

Donald

Since I could not find the rollers for the drivers I had propped the engine oup on the lead and trailing trucks to let the drivers hang free. This caused a bit of brake shoe drag so i placed some 1/4" thick nylon blocks under the drivers and let the engine down on them slightly. There is a heavy duty chain wrapped around the main axle and one of the cross braces on the stand. There is also a block at the end of the stand. Seems to work OK but a bit of a nail biter with the engine running. The spring clamps help keep the blocks from popping out. Don't think I will recommend this method but it did help with repairing the axle pump and showing there is a cylinder drain cock problem.

See the bottom of page 12 for the injector piping pictures

Donald
Attachments
R-GS-1 A373.jpg
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FLSTEAM
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Location: Central Florida

Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by FLSTEAM »

Donald

I have not read all the posts but I assume you have checked the check valve. What you are describing sounds like a stuck check. I had a similar problem and changed the brass ball out to a Teflon one. No problems since.

John B.
GS14403
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Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by GS14403 »

The boiler checks are models of the Nathan Boiler check. Our version uses a removable seat and valve that is easily removed for cleaning. The bodies are three pieces Silver soldered together. The two check valves on my engine have worked admirably during the first twenty years of operation. The axle pump check valve never needed serviced and the injector side stuck open a couple of times and a soaking of vinegar cured that. The valve and seat are 303 stainless. During the rebuild process the mounting threads for the line became damaged so I decided to make a new set out of 416 stainless. While making the new check valve bodies it became obvious that the Silver soldered joints were not strong enough so the stainless bodies were scrapped and a set of brass bodies were made. The new bodies are slightly larger in diameter and length to give more surface area for the solder joints and longer threads for the lines. The threads for the lines are 9/16-32.

When first tried only the boiler check was used. My dad suggested installing an inline valve at the injector as that was they did to get the injector on the WP Mike to work. So far none of the combinations of inline, boiler check, or both valves installed at the same time corrected the problem. Even connecting the garden hose to the water inlet line to the injector and pressurizing the supply side failed to help.

Donald
Attachments
One of the old check valve bodies and a set of new valves and seats. In the foreground is the commercial inline check valve being tried.
One of the old check valve bodies and a set of new valves and seats. In the foreground is the commercial inline check valve being tried.
One of the stainless bodies before scrapping. Shows how the check bodies are assembled.
One of the stainless bodies before scrapping. Shows how the check bodies are assembled.
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makinsmoke
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Location: Texas Hill Country

Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by makinsmoke »

Donald,
Sorry if this seems like a stupid question but is the injector
getting hot? Had a similar problem years ago that ended up
being a plumbing mix up, but the end result was the injector
was getting too hot and would not pick up. We figured it out by
getting steam up then running cold water from a garden
hose in the injector.

Brian
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makinsmoke
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Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by makinsmoke »

Sorry running cold water over the injector.
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baggo
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Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by baggo »

Looking at your check valves, they seem to be spring loaded? Maybe the combination of boiler pressure and the spring pressure is too much for the injector to overcome. We normally use vertical clacks with just a ball in them, no springs.

It does sound like a problem between the injector and the boiler rather than the water and steam supplies. Those check valves look very restrictive to the water flow.

John
Secretary of The National 2½" Gauge Association
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GS14403
Posts: 275
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Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by GS14403 »

Hi guys,

Thanks for the feedback. The injector was subjected to a cooling bath of water multiple times, still with no pleasurable results. The reason for changing to the economy injector was that the original injector, a Detroit #2, was way too large for the area it had to occupy. The addition of the booster piping caused this lack of available space. The Detroit injector was probably too large for this engine, during operation the sight glass could be seen quickly rising and the steam pressure would drop accordingly. Very handy for closing safety valves while coasting. The boiler checks handled this size injector with no problems. The Detroit most likely had a volume of at least 4-8 times the economy injector, after all it was used on a commercial size boiler. The spring shown for my boiler checks was removed as its primary function was to help keep the valve concentric to the body. The check was tested with and without the spring and it was found the spring was unnecessary. The original boiler checks on my engine did not use this spring. The spring for the inline check has almost no strength, just enough to keep the valve against the seat in a horizontal position.

During testing of the boiler check valves I had hooked an air hose directly to the check valve body through a ball valve. Applying air I was able to test the valve for sealing. When opening the valve against 120psi air pressure. it took a bit of effort as there is a good sized sealing surface. I do not believe a spring would add enough additional resistance to make a difference. Maybe the valves are too large for this injector, yet the horizontal inline check valve works perfectly on the Mike.

Attached are pictures of the original injector.

Donald
Attachments
R-GS-1 A130.jpg
R-GS-1 A132.jpg
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TEAMTSM
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Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by TEAMTSM »

i do know that this problem is so very very frustrating as i went thru this same issue on my engine with the ss encon inj. i was running a coles 5/16 check and i always had water running out the over flow of my injector and it was always finiky to get started and on one side of the engine it worked a little and the other side no dice at all. After weeks of trying about everything that has already been said i changed out the check valves to pm research popet style checks and i have to say i was at a sigh of relief the first fire up and i hit the injector and it made that awesom sound of pick up and all the water was being put in the boiler and not on the ground. so u might want to look into that and also i see u have big lines but i found that and fitting needs to have at least a 7/32 hole in it to pass water easy.
may not help but that is what fixed my issues.

steve nelson
GS14403
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Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by GS14403 »

Hmmmm......

Lots of good feedback and ideas. I am beginning to wonder if the check valves are too large. Tomorrow I think I will make a set of seats for 1/4" and 5/16" balls and try them in the boiler check. Both of the current check valves tried have a fairly large area and maybe the injector does not have enough volume to overcome this. Hope a cure happens soon as this problem is making me think of donating this engine to a museum or something, the past several months have just been too frustrating.

Donald
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kenrinc
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Re: GS-1, finishing up the hard way

Post by kenrinc »

GS14403 wrote: I believe I am the first and only person in the entire world that cannot get an economy injector to work.
Nah :mrgreen: My 1st couple runs with my SS economy injector went the same. It wouldn't work. But, I'm going to assume that you have a more difficult issue than I had, since you've done quite a bit of troubleshooting. My problem was one of education; I'd never used an injector before :wink: When I opened my starting valve, all the water would go out the overflow. I couldn't figure it out. Then by chance, I noticed I had forgotten to open the water valve from the tender. As I began opening the valve, the unit picked up and started working. For my small engine, my supply line must be metered or the unit will not pickup. It will just dump water overboard. .$02 I wish you luck on finding a fix.

Ken-
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