A Real Dirty Job

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Bill Shields
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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by Bill Shields » Wed May 28, 2014 7:20 am

caulking will work, as will clay and / or Play Dough

another easier way (but more expensive) is find someone with an EDM drill and have them burn them out in less time than it takes to type this.

sometimes just taking the boiler off is easier (in the long run).
Too many things going on to bother listing them.

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Carrdo
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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by Carrdo » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:07 am

Have now drilled out and re - threaded 8 of the 12 snapped off fasteners found embedded in the boiler's mud ring. This was done with my micro hand drilling method as the sulphuric acid treatment did not work at all. See photo.

I really don't know why the acid method did not work. I used fresh battery acid and changed the acid every hour. I drilled pilot holes down through the fasteners to the base of the screw thread holes and the acid didn't even touch the remaining rings of metal- it only turned the freshly drilled steel to a dark grey colour. And it wasn't because the acid wasn't strong enough as it completely ate the syringe steel needle tip through which the acid was being added to the holes in about an hour. I gave up after trying continuously for about a week.

There is something more complicated going on here than the chemistry suggests. Perhaps (and I am only speculating) the fasteners after being exposed to years of heating and cooling in a carbon rich environment at the base of the firebox, the composition of the steel has changed somehow to make it acid resistant or maybe the abundance of copper protects the steel in some fashion (which is totally contrary to what the activity table suggests) or the abundance of corrosion and corrosion products protects the steel from acid attack. Any way, whatever the cause, the sulphuric acid failed to dissolve any of the fastener metal embedded in the copper.

The remaining 4 snapped off fasteners I am going to leave where they are as they are not necessary to re-attach anything. It looks like someone(s) in the past snapped off the original fasteners (maybe several times) and then re-drilled and tapped new holes in different locations on the mud ring. I didn't want to put any more holes in the mud ring as there are enough there now.

Inadvertently during the process, I came up with a new? and improved method of removing the imbedded steel fasteners mechanically and very economically without have to resort to using an EDM or anything like that. The photo shows all of the tools involved (the high speed electric die grinder is not necessary except to make one operation go a bit faster). I would agree that if one did remove the boiler and made a secure boiler cradle, one could use standard machine tool drilling. But everything was done in place as shown in the photo.

I am not going to describe the entire process but I can say that what not to do here is just as important as what to do. So, just to start to describe the issues faced.

The snapped off fasteners, some were at the level of the copper mud ring, some were below and some were proud of the mud ring. All of them had an irregular non flat fracture surface.

The first operation is to bring all of the proud fasteners to the level of the mud ring. This can be done with careful hand filing with the riffler file seen in the picture (slow but sure) or the with the electric die grinder for speedy results. But, if using any high speed rotary device, be warned, let the grinding stone do the actual cutting and do not force or put pressure on the wheel in any way. Also, careful hand control of the die grinder is necessary so as not to over grind or damage the mud ring. A flat fastener surface is what we want at exactly the level of the mud ring and what we want to see is the exact location (circumference) of the fastener in the mud ring. This means that the fastener and mud ring are also free of any corrosion or corrosion products in this area. Of course employ eye protection when using any type of rotary tool.

Next, take an automatic or hand center punch and punch as carefully and exactly as possible the center of the circumference circle of the fastener. Use an eye loupe and very good lighting to verify the indentation location or to adjust the punch mark. Then...

For fasteners snapped off below the level of the mud ring, I made up a small split bronze sleeve to hold the miniature ball carbide dental burr shown in the photo. The dental burr size should be approximately half the diameter of the root diameter of the fastener and we want a ball cutter as the cutting edges of the burr are arranged so that the cutter will cut both down and sideways. This cutting assembly is held either in the hand drill (preferred) or in the electric drill shown. The hand drill is better as it gives better control for the operation we want to perform. What we want to do is to create the start of a half sphere indentation in the center of the irregular top surface of the fastener. Hand control is best as we want things to happen slowly.

What is amazing is that these burrs run new at hundreds of thousands of RPM in a very special air driven spindle with ceramic bearings when used by your dentist but I found, inadvertently, used ones will also cut steel quite well when turned at hand speeds and will also give very fine locational control by using light cutting pressure. As before, use the eye loupe and good lighting to confirm that the indentation being created is at the center of the fastener. Once formed, one can also enlarge the mark with the automatic or hand center punch. Then...

One thing one cannot do is run these burrs (new or used) for this application at high speed. They will jump and buck and possibly shatter and ruin the side wall of the thread before one can even react. The secret is to be slow and steady and patient.
Attachments
50 Eight Broken Off Bolts in Boiler Mud Ring Drilled Out and Re- threaded.png

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Bill Shields
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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by Bill Shields » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:32 am

did you dilute the acid?

I have done what you want with salt and vinegar solution alone...
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Carrdo
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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by Carrdo » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:43 am

HI Bill,

It was standard motor cycle battery acid whatever strength that is. I don't want to work with anything stronger (like fuming acid) at home. This stuff was hard on my skin just in the handling.

As often remarked upon, I guess I will stick with the devils I have come to know.

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Bill Shields
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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by Bill Shields » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:05 am

it might have worked better if diluted a bit...

I don't exactly remember the chemistry from school (or DuPont) days, but....something tells me that
adding some water makes it work better.

either that or I have been smoking too much whacky weed.... :shock:

maybe I should stick to EDM drilling these things out...
Too many things going on to bother listing them.

Pontiacguy1
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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by Pontiacguy1 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:58 pm

For most lead-acid battery electrolyte solutions, the composition is 35% sulfuric acid, 65% distilled water.
That's what our industrial battery maintenance company attempts to achieve. I can't imagine automotive-type batteries being much different.

SilverSanJuan
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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by SilverSanJuan » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:08 pm

Yeah, I bought some battery acid recently from NAPA auto parts. The specs on the container listed the range of 34 to 39%.

Todd

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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by enginewife » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:53 pm

Hello, my husband is building a Langworthy Hudson that his father started in the 1930s. We need details about running boards, air pump support and ladder that mounts to the boiler cover and some details about the cab. Any suggestions on who we can contact and how to reach them? We live in Cincinnati, OH and will be in Pennsylvania and Maryland area in October. Hoping to see a Langworthy and get some pictures/measurements/info. Thanks

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LVRR2095
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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by LVRR2095 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:34 pm

enginewife wrote:Hello, my husband is building a Langworthy Hudson that his father started in the 1930s. We need details about running boards, air pump support and ladder that mounts to the boiler cover and some details about the cab. Any suggestions on who we can contact and how to reach them? We live in Cincinnati, OH and will be in Pennsylvania and Maryland area in October. Hoping to see a Langworthy and get some pictures/measurements/info. Thanks
Contact John Kurdzionak at Friend's / Yankee Shop. He sells the blue prints and castings for the Langworthy Hudson
Keith

enginewife
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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by enginewife » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:07 pm

Thanks Keith. We have contacted John K. and have the plans and what castings we need. We are hoping to look at a completed or almost completed Langworthy Hudson. Does anybody know anyone who has one? And how to reach them? We might build a vacation around that location. This seems to be the forum to find Hudsons but we don't know how to contact an owner to see if they mind if we come and look. Thanks for any help.

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Carrdo
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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by Carrdo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:10 pm

Further work on the Langworthy 4 wheel trailing truck heart shaped rockers.

The problem with the Langworthy design here is the heart shaped rockers are not secured to the base plate and when the train goes over a bump they can flip out. This seems to be impossible with the amount of weight that they carry (and as well they are almost entirely in compression even on the model) but it can and does happen. It can also happen when the engine is lifted or moved.

With full size practice the heart shaped rockers are not secured to the base plate either but long large metal tabs are cast into the top inclined rocker plate which extend down into slots on the rockers. These tabs both guide and prevent the above situation from occurring when the rockers incline from side to side when the engine rounds a curve or goes over a bump. There is also enormous compression weight on the rockers which keeps them in place.

However, model track is often much rougher than prototype rail so additional means of securing the rockers is necessary.

One proven way to accomplish this in a model is that which is seen on the Coventry Pacific or in the Josslin Hudson. Instead of having twin rocker feet as seen on the Langworthy Hudson, there is a single large central half rounded foot on the rocker through which a large pin can be inserted and held in place by a heavy "U" shaped base plate. This single foot rocker design is both simple, rugged and practical. It also allows the heart shaped rockers to move as per the prototype and yet keep the rockers in place when the locomotive is lifted or goes over a large bump.

So the question becomes does one modify the Langworthy design to the above or how does one keep the twin foot heart shaped rocker design (which closely follows the prototype) in place while still allowing all necessary rocker movements?

I have not seen what I came up with before in any model so... (to be continued).
Attachments
52 Slotting the Rockers.jpg
53 Slotted Rockers with New Base Plates.jpg
54 How the Josslin Hudson Rockers Function.jpg
55 How the Coventry Pacific Rockers Function.jpg

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Carrdo
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Re: A Real Dirty Job

Post by Carrdo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:31 pm

As you can see in the second photo of the previous post, one has to maintain the correct orientation on the mating parts. The two heart shaped rockers and their respective bases are nearly the same but not exactly identical - they are matched to each other.

To secure the rockers to their bases, I simply drilled two matching holes at quarter points centered between the two rocker feet and also centered in the rocker base pieces. The secret was to drill a hole which was 0.001" larger in diameter than the OD of the joining compression springs as shown in the photo. Then expand the ends of each compression spring slightly on a small tapered mandrel. In the rockers themselves, the two holes were drilled 1/4" deep and 3/16" deep in the base pieces.

Just employ the correct combination of compression spring OD and number drill.

One can then friction push the springs down to the bottom of each drilled hole. There is a little bit of spring left between the two parts in the unloaded state which allows the heart shaped rockers to flex and tilt from side to side all that you want (both in the loaded and/or the unloaded condition).

That's it - just be careful to line up the drilled holes.

On this trailing truck, the next issue is with the leaf spring end keepers - they can rotate and be lost under certain operating conditions as the leaf springs flex. The Coventry designed leaf spring end keepers cannot but are a bit more complicated to make. The next job.

Having survived at least 30 years of running, use and abuse shows that the Langworthy Hudson design is a strong and sound design; however, there are always the many details which could be improved upon and better thought out with experience and hindsight. Or to put it in other words make it "bulletproof".

Finally, to repeat what I have said many times before, the rocker base truck frame attachment screws are liberally coated with an anti seize compound. Hot/cold/wet and dry - which every part of a locomotive will see hundreds of times.
Attachments
56 How the Langworthy Hudson Rockers are Secured.jpg
57 The Secure New Rocker Assemblies Installed.jpg

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