Woodinville Shops

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

Moderators: Glenn Brooks, Harold_V

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Topics may include: antique park gauge train restoration, preservation, and history; building new grand scale equipment from scratch; large scale miniature railway construction, maintenance, and safe operation; fallen flags; track, gauge, and equipment standards; grand scale vendor offerings; and, compiling an on-line motive power roster.
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Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1197
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:47 pm

Can't come up with a pithy name for my backyard Railway so decided to start a thread focusing on my shop projects relating to building the RR. Hence the "Woodinville Shops".

So far all the work for the year has focused on laying 12" gauge track using the old ties, spikes, and 12 pound rail salvaged from the 'Harper Hill Railroad', actually the H.K.&G.N. RR - Harper, Kitsap and Great Northern - I guess, previously located near Port Orchard, Wa. My workplan plan is oriented toward steaming up the ex-Harper Ottaway and rolling stock to run excursion trips for neighboors before fall. Next winter I want to get back to restoring the old Campbell 4-4-0 locomotive, and maybe bring the old, retired one lunger diesel switcher back into service. In between time I need to build up a ballast car to move 30 or 40 yards of 5/8 minus from the yard out along the ROW, for use as ballast.

Anyway, lat week, I cut down the 14' drop flat car acquired with the Ottaway, as it was to long to navigate my 11' turntable. So a two day job, three with repainting, to cut 32" out of the frame and reweld everything back together. This will be my ROW car for hauling rail and tools to End Of Track, and bringing out 'tailings' from excavating the Summit Mine Tunnel - 'tailings' as in I've been working my tail off to dig this miserable cut through the summit, off and on for a year, to achieve grade.

Here's the pic of the paint drying on the newly rebuilt flat car.
IMG_3257.JPG
Rebuilt drop flat coming out of the Woodinville Shop
Rolled out of the yard, onto the turntable, awaiting new decking.
IMG_3259.JPG
Also, The Rights of Way Department and extra gang has been slowly laying track north out of the yard, along the western division. It seems that expedited track laying works out to about 10'/day of completed track. Temps in the 80's and 90's slow things down a bit... particularly when naps are involved. And, to compound matters, Yesterday having just reached the edge of the Great Northern Forest I ran out of materials - ties mainly. So next week it will be time to start milling around 270 or so 4x4's to lay the remaining 350' of track through the forest, over the summit division and down the eastern slope around to the spot where the Great Sourdough Canyon Bridge is to be built. I figure the mainline will be around 500' or so of track, when completed, with an additional 100' of siding out in the forest - to store rolling stock and work cars that my wife says the neighboors don't want to look at day in and day out. Can't image what she is talking about. Initially, I proposed parking the work cars and retired switchers on a siding out in front of the house, along side her shinny new SUV. For some reason that didn't work out. So Iam planning the siding out back, in the Forest just before near the Cascade Summit tunnel, where they will be stored for convenience of the ROW crew.

Here is End Of Rail in the Forrest Division- 150' from the yard and Shops.
IMG_4118.JPG
Golden Spike Ceremony set for Labor Day. As the ceremony has been pushed back from Memorial Day, three times thus far, 'The Schedule' is a bit flexible to say the least.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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NP317
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Location: Northern Oregon

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by NP317 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:30 am

Glenn:
You've been making serious progress this year!
Good to see.
~RN

Pontiacguy1
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Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Pontiacguy1 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:14 am

Man, that's just cool. I love 7 1/2" gauge, which is my main hobby, but the grand scales are just awesome to see. Good luck with the rest of your track laying.

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1197
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:08 am

Making more progress on the RR. Laying tangent track is quick and easy compared to bending rail for curves. Today completed the south division from the yard out to start of the trestle. Wow, it's a lot easier to drive spikes at 70°, rather than mid 90's we've had for the last couple of weeks. Dense, thick smoke haze from B.C. Forest fires dissipated also. Should be able to start work on the trestle this afternoon.

Here's a few pics.
IMG_4187.JPG
Breaking open the kegs of new track bolts and spikes
IMG_4180.JPG
End of track looking at the rampart site from the "grand canyon"
IMG_4177.JPG
Work car with tools and materials
The drop flat car has been a real labor saver. Carrying all the materials - ties, kegs of spikes, tools, WATER!! means dozens of saved trips lugging this stuff along the ROW.
IMG_4178.JPG
Initial load of 4"x6" ties
Up till now I've been re -using existing track materials. Approximately half the old ties, spikes, fishplates and track bolts are still serviceable. So used them up first. Ordered three kegs of new, shinney, perfectly formed 3" spikes and track bolt /plate sets from Harmon Steel in Portland last week. Wow, what a difference using new bolts and spikes! The old, existing bolts and spikes each display some degree of rusting, so required pulling all the (spikes) from the ties, chipping the rust off each piece, then deciding what to use or discard. Saved $1500 by reusing materials, but mightily added to my 'labor cost' reclaiming the materials. Using the new bolts and spikes is sweet!

Next step - lay the final 15' of rail out over the rampart, build the trestle abutements and put in the foundation for the bents. Trestle needs to be 40' more or less to span the gulch, so planning on 7 bents, five feet apart to span the creek bed. My cousin is a retired civil engineer and is doing some calcs on dynamic loading to verify safe distances between bents. Might need to go with 4' between bents if the numbers don't work. This will be a lightly loaded pike, so don't need massive framing for the trestle - but do not want to change horses in mid stream and pull the footings and do it over once the concrete cures!

Glenn
Attachments
IMG_4181.JPG
Newly laid track running up to the trestle site
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1197
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops - trestle construction

Post by Glenn Brooks » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:01 pm

Finished laying track up to trestle abutement on the south end of the gully. Then surveyed and confirmed my earlier elevations across the 'canyon' to the far abutement. Very happy both abutements worked out to the same elevation! Goes to show that manical attention to maintaining grade during track laying can pay off once in awhile.

I've decided to place bents ever 5'. So will start laying footings and pour concrete abutment ledges to support the ends of the trestle this afternoon.

In cruising around the internet for design ideas, found this example of trestle design. Wonder if this would be strong enough?
IMG_1577.JPG
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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NP317
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Location: Northern Oregon

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by NP317 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:13 am

Wow!
~RN

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Atkinson_Railroad
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Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Atkinson_Railroad » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:40 am

Glenn,

Really enjoy your industrious enthusiasm and approach in building a “real” railroad as opposed to a train set.
Your Woodinville shop name fits perfectly.

Capture some photos of your work during the eclipse if you’re so inclined. The state of Washington is in a pretty
good position for the upcoming event.
The woods surrounding your railroad will take on a filtered “look”… kind of like your old trestle picture
taken by someone long ago.

John

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1197
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:22 pm

Thanks John, Glad to hear the thread is of some interest!

Building the RR is one part fun, one part sort of re-living history, and sometimes one part 'what In the world have I got myself into here?' -which is maybe what the old timers thought from time to time.

One thing for sure, I've certainly come to appreciate what the field hands went through when they built this country- working in the fields or building the original rail roads across the west. Driving spikes is tough physical labor in the hot sun. I get to take naps. Not so the Chinese extra gangs on the Central Pacific, or field hands on plantations, or the folk working in fields today. It is tough work, day in and day out.

I might try for some photos - no telling whether we will have viewing conditions or not. Today, after 59 days of scorching hot, CAVU weather, intermixed with dense forest fire smoke, the skies are overcast and gray - clouds out of nowhere.

Here's a little follow up to what my re-cycled spikes look like. These below, I pulled out of cedar ties that had been in service for 35 years. Interestingly, a few spikes came out clean, almost as if they had just been driven. Most looked like this:
IMG_4189.JPG
3" RR spike - after 35 years service
And a before and after photo showing the old spikes and similar ones ready for reuse.
IMG_4188.JPG
Spikes still serviceable for reuse-before and after

They clean up pretty well with a chipping hammer.

I've found three or four different styles of spikes. They are either 4" long, or 3" long (measured along the shank from bottom of the head to the tip, and 3/8" square when new. The spikes have three different size heads, so definitely three lots mixed in here over time. Some of the rail has a casting date of '1914' stamped on the web. Hard to tell if any are this old - maybe the ones I had to discard. They are all some form of cast iron - they seem quite malleable.

For safety, I decided to classify the used spikes into three categories:

Class 1 - mainline service: generally reusable- 5/16" square at the neck or better, uniform taper to the tip
Class 2 - yard service: light duty siding or yard service only - 1/4" square or better, no significant pockets of corrosion along the shank
Class 3 - throw into the bushes: shank to skinny to trust on light use sidings

So far, I've only had one spike fail - head broke off when I drove it back into a tie. Now the used spikes are mostly reused. Iam into the new ones - shinney black steel, oiled. Smooth as butter in new cedar ties. Fun times!

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

rkcarguy
Posts: 590
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by rkcarguy » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:49 am

Hi Glen,

Very cool to see a 12" gage RR in the works. I'm not so far away....to your north about 90 minutes.
I have a couple questions for you...is your track gage 12" tight between the rails?
I've decided on a 1/6th scale, 12" gage for my "working railroad" and was hoping to adhere to some kind of standards so if I was to explore another layout and vice versa, the gage would match.

Ryan

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1197
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:39 am

Hi Ryan, sounds like you are in the Bellingham area. Welcome to the forum! My track gauge is pretty close to 12". Actually on tangent track (straight sections) Iam at 12 1/16" and on tight curves - say 20' to 30' radius - I use 12 3/16". You will want a little bit extra on curves to accommodate the rigid axle radius of your trucks. However best advise I received when I started researching optimum track gauge is to much extra width in the curves causes the wheels to have a tendency to derail. To much angle the wheel hits the outside rail to sharply and encourages the wheel to ride up and over the head- causing it to derail. So a tighter spacing guides the flange of the wheel around the curve more smoothly.

Also the trucks on my rolling stock were built a bit under gauge. They are maybe 11 15/16". Although the drivers on my loco are spot on 12".

One other consideration is the wheel base of what ever locomotives you plan to operate. Most 12" ga equipment are in the class 4-4-0, so have a very short wheelbase accommodating tight curves. The Cagney's for example can accommodate 15' radius, and 20' radius curves are common in an amusement park setting. However, once you add a third (set of ) drivers, the radius of curves needs to go out to 50' or more, with no more than 12 1/4" gauge.

If you plan on 1/6th scale you might consider exploring 7.5" gauge - sort of "standard gauge" in the live steam hobby. We have three club tracks in the immediate vicinity of the PNW - not to mention the 35 miles of track down in Oregon at Train Mountain. The local tracks are: Kitsap Live Steamers at Port Orchard, Great Northern miniature Railway, at Skykomish, and the British Columbia Society of Model Engineers at Burnaby, BC, just outside Vancouver.

Your choice for 1/6th works out to 2" scale, which is well within the parameters for 7.5" gauge track. In fact some people are actually building, and selling components and loco's in 2.5" scale and also 3 3/4" scale. The latter being more appropriate for 12" gauge, but there are no hard and fast rules, except do what you like!

If you haven't been down to one of the club tracks, please come on down and visit, or Join! Lots of people around willing to lend advice and technical expertise.

Anything I can do to assist, please let me know.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

rkcarguy
Posts: 590
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by rkcarguy » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:48 pm

I just finished my lengthy post about my plan, have a look!
I'm going to be going "diesel" with a 4-axle switcher, the trucks will pivot and have 16" wheel centers so it should be capable of some tight corners. However, I think 30' is going to be my tightest radius, worst case. At one end I'll have a pole building to go around, at the other a retaining pond.
As much as it sounds like fun going to all the different tracks, my plan is more work oriented with some fun thrown in, but possibly a 7.5" gage fabrication is in my future though for such excursions.

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1197
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:52 pm

Just started work on the trestle. Spent the last few days trying to figure out how best to lay in footings for the bents. I finally decided to use traditional poured cement footings with a course of cement block on top to get above ground level. Probably overbuilt, but I don't want any structural issues latter. Also, my idea is this trestle could eventually be part of a small footpath around the back yard. So decided to go with 4' wide tie width, rather than 32". This will allow people to walk across without being circus performers. This is working out quite nicely to be a 1/4 scale trestle.

Material sizes, trestle width and height closely approximate the old Northern Pacific Railway standard gauge trestle design. Footings and mud sill will be 6' long. Cap beams - 4x6x 5'. I Decided to use 4x6 timbers for the sill and cap even though slightly oversized, and 3x5 close grain old growth salvaged fir from a long gone 100 year old local fish cannery for the vertical support posts. Really nice post materials. Strong and solid material.

The trestle will be anchored to the rock outcropping in the photos below approximately 7' diameter, then connect the final 10' to the north rampart, for a total span of 40', having 8 panels. Also went with each bent 4' on centers. This allows equally spaced bents, using 12' long material. Max height around 5' in the bottom of the gully.

Here's a few pics of the dirt work.
IMG_4230.JPG
IMG_4231.JPG
IMG_4232.JPG
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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