Woodinville Shops

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

Moderators: Glenn Brooks, Harold_V

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Topics may include: antique park gauge train restoration, preservation, and history; building new grand scale equipment from scratch; large scale miniature railway construction, maintenance, and safe operation; fallen flags; track, gauge, and equipment standards; grand scale vendor offerings; and, compiling an on-line motive power roster.
rkcarguy
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Woodinville Shops

Postby rkcarguy » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:14 am

I would bet the bracket in the last picture is missing bolts on purpose, so it can move(expansion joint)?
It's amazing that wood can last that long.
Did you have any troubles with permitting with your RR Glenn? I know up here I've got to keep any grading to +/- 32", and any decks and trestles and so on no more than a certain distance from the ground to escape the need for a permit.

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1036
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Postby Glenn Brooks » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:50 pm

Because of one neighbor, I went to the county Building Department and asked about permits before I started all this. Turns out Iam doing "landscaping" so long as walls are under 5' above ground and structures are less than 6' tall. Can't remember, but grading might be 32" also. Otherwise, I would need Engineering certs on drawings and a building permit. So I purposely kept my grading and heights within code.

So my reventments, trestle, turntable and bridges are all landscape features, built with a 'railroad yard art theme'.

One interesting thing I learned, is landscaping has no set back requirements. So I could lay my track and infrastructure right up to the property line if I wished.(I didn't)

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

rkcarguy
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Woodinville Shops

Postby rkcarguy » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:27 pm

Interesting, and good news! I realize our mileage may vary though.
I think the 32" is a ecology department thing state wide. 6' height gives you a lot to play with, especially if you combine being able to work the grade +/- 32" :)

Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Postby Glenn Brooks » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:25 pm

Just a quick update on wood trestle design. An old time RR engineer told me the other day that the flashing In the trestle photos on the previous page, was actually to prevent burning coal embers, dropped from passing steam locomotives, from causing trestle fires. The flashing deflected the embers down onto the ground, or allowed them to burn out while resting on the galvanized sheet metal. Apparently the NOrthern Pacific also installed flashing over the tops of the stringers running underneath the ties.

Every detail has a purpose in the Railway world! Iam certainly discovering a lot I would otherwise have never known, with this little project.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

rkcarguy
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Woodinville Shops

Postby rkcarguy » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:38 pm

interesting, I would have thought it was for preventing rot, but I guess both.

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1036
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Postby Glenn Brooks » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:50 pm

Yes, water intrusion and rot was my first guess also. Makes sense to prevent trestle fires though. That seems like the major threat.

-g
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1036
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops - foray in riveting

Postby Glenn Brooks » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:52 am

Decided to try my hand at riveting a flange to reinforce a vertical post in a bent for the trestle Iam building.

I need 16 flanges to affix the vertical posts in the bents to each mud sill. These posts are located directly underneath the rails that will extend along the bridge deck of the trestle. Each flange is through bolted to the post, then will be attached to the mud sill atop the each foundation, with 3/8" galvanized lag screws.

Initially I thought "wouldn't it be cool to build this thing with all traditional techniques - which meant riveting all 16 flanges (2 per support post x 4 bents x 2 vertical posts each = 16 flanges). Found out that 6 rivets, 1/4" diameter shanks, cost nearly $5.00, or around $80 just for the rivets. So, did one as an experiment, then to save money -welded the rest.

Here's what I learned.

First, ball peen hammers were originally used to hammer the shank of the rivet flat - securing the two pieces together. The flat hammer head, on the hammer, was used by riveters to initially set the rivet in place, by driving the rivet through the hole. Then they flipped the hammer over and mushroomed, or "peened", the shaft tight against the work. Each size hammer fit a specific size rivet. Finally, apparently riveted fixtures are stronger than welded seams or bolts. Never knew any of this.

Before starting I did learn that red hot rivets were used in early day boiler and ship construction because white hot rivets would shrink considerably when cool, drawing the seam closed. Fortunately I have 4 old, different sized ball peen hammers that I inherited from my father in law, so plenty of 'tooling' for several different sized rivets.

Here's what the flange looks like, with three cold driven rivets already in place. Ballpeen hammer I used in the background. (0k, I cheated a bit and tack welded the two pieces together. This was an experiment of sorts, and I wanted to make the learning curve a little easier

IMG_4347.JPG
Two piece flange, made from 3x3 Channel iron with a 5.5" length of 4" flatbar affixed vertically to angle iron.


Next photo shows the backside after striking the rivet stud five times.

IMG_4350.JPG
Initial mushroom created with 5 strikes with the peen


Finally, the finished rivet, after 10 or 12 strikes.

IMG_4353.JPG


QC...
Two of six rivets didn't seat properly when I initially set the mushroom. After working them with the hammer, the rivets are still a bit loose. I suspect I didn't have a proper bucking plate to hold the rivets properly when I first set them in place.

Very interesting to make this flange. I would like to rivet a tender frame together latter in the winter, or early spring. So, plan on getting some more experience, and finding a source for different shaped rivet heads. Also, need to come up with a more appropriate bucking plate.

Anybody have experience riveting, sure would like to hear from you.

Thanks much
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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10KPete
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Location: Nordland, WA, USA

Re: Woodinville Shops

Postby 10KPete » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:20 am

Glenn, those poor rivets!! Ya beat the @*&% out of 'em!

A rivet should have a head at both ends thick enough to not spring under load. You say they are still loose.... well, the heads can't hold tight when that thin.

Rivets are properly set with a rivet set. They come as individuals or sets for types and head shapes.

Sure, you can beat it over with the hammer peen but you'll never get it tight with out the head set.

Pete
Just tryin'

rkcarguy
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Woodinville Shops

Postby rkcarguy » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:33 am

Pete beat me to it. There is a tool with a concave pocket in the end of it used to keep the head round like a button head screw. You could probably grind one into a harder piece of steel if needed.

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1036
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Postby Glenn Brooks » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:05 pm

10KPete wrote:Glenn, those poor rivets!! Ya beat the @*&% out of 'em!
Pete


WAIT, WHAT! No more wack-a-Mole? Spoils all the fun.

Seriously, I tried to find some guidance on line, and only found one guy who said, whack 'em flat.

Obviously I didn't understand. Now, today, after your subtle promoting :P I looked further and actually found this graphic about how rivets should look when set - corresponds nicely with what you said. Makes sense.

IMG_1678.JPG


Also,found out Hanson Rivet sells a box of 100 for the same price as our local fastener suppliers sells only six each rivets over the counter! So will order a box or two and practise some more. I promise not to harm the poor things.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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NP317
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Location: Northern Oregon

Re: Woodinville Shops

Postby NP317 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:58 am

Glenn:
Flattening the rivets on the extended end works well.
That's how I riveted the tenders for both my locos, and they have proven to be water tight.
~RN

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1036
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Postby Glenn Brooks » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:16 pm

Thanks Russ, good to know. I am beginning to think there are different techniques for structural and sheet-metal purposes. More practice needed on my part, for sure.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....


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