12" working railroad

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

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Topics may include: antique park gauge train restoration, preservation, and history; building new grand scale equipment from scratch; large scale miniature railway construction, maintenance, and safe operation; fallen flags; track, gauge, and equipment standards; grand scale vendor offerings; and, compiling an on-line motive power roster.
rkcarguy
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Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:28 pm

It looks like I'm finally making some headway on the permit for the house/land modifications working around the wetland on the property. Phase 1 and 2 of the RR are outside of the wetland buffer zone so no problem going south along the property line then around the detention pond. The land always was and is buildable, but there have been a lot of extra hoops to jump through due to the wetland. I'm told that I'll likely need a hydraulic project permit if I want to trestle across the seasonal "stream" (would be phase 3) but it is a no fee deal because it's not a full out "vehicle" crossing and I'll be able to keep any vertical supports well out of the streambed. Due to the potential for dirt/silt run-off I'm *not sure* if I'll be allowed to do any dirt work in phase 1(adjacent to wetland but outside of the buffer zone) before May 1st 2019. If this is the case, I'll just continue building my "train set" and then in the spring/summer while I'm doing the site work and have the dozer rentals I'm going to have a track laying extravaganza.

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neanderman
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Re: 12" working railroad

Post by neanderman » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:16 am

Good luck and best wishes!!!
Ed

Le Blond Dual Drive
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Proud denizen of the former "Machine Tool Capitol of the World"

rkcarguy
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Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:55 am

The property already has power, 3 bedroom septic, and water, but a non-permit size cabin was built about 20 years ago. Because its 5 acres in 5 acre zoning, I'd be allowed to build even if I had a whole lot of nothing but wetlands. The laws require though, that the driveway and house be placed to minimize impact, which is where I've been having several go-arounds with the county. Along the west property line there is a ditch that has a 30' wide drainage easement which is all outside of the wetlands buffer. It can't contain any structures but I can park vehicles and trailers, landscape, run the driveway here, and lay track to my hearts content. Same thing around the detention pond to the south. Then I can go about 120' east before I run into the stream setback which I'll need an HPA to encroach on. This is about 675' of track to that point though, so there is plenty of work ahead of me before that happens.

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ccvstmr
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Re: 12" working railroad

Post by ccvstmr » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:26 pm

RK...don't recall seeing where your location is. Ever hear of the Lake Kathleen & Meadows RR in Deadwood, OR? Look this up on the internet. Here was a guy well into building his dream large-r scale RR...and the state, county, city officials shut him down. A takeaway might be...before you start anything on your property, get the officials to put any and all agreements in writing. Better yet...if you want to control the agreement...YOU write it up and have the officials sign the document. Might not help if there's a problem later on, but better to have documentation in your back pocket you might not need...than the other way around. Just sayin'... Carl B.
Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!
I don't walk on water...I just learned where some of the stepping stones are!
I love mankind...it's some of the people I can't stand!

rkcarguy
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Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:25 pm

The problem is, there isn't really anything that says I can or can't. Being I work in the construction industry, I know it's highly unlikely that I will get someone to officially sign off on it due to that. No one will be accountable when there is nothing to cite. I am planning to have a conversation with someone though because I know the inspector will see the grade and wonder what's up. I'm well aware of the RR that was shut down in Oregon, that guy had a sex offense in his past, had violated several regulations building the many structures and trestles which had no engineering, encroached on wetlands and fish bearing waters, and was offering rides to the public. After all that, officials even offered him far reduced fines and wanted some engineering done after the fact on the structures, which he refused, so the hammer came down.
None of the above applies to my situation, except if I decide to enter the buffer area and cross the stream with a trestle which will require a hydraulic project permit. We have an engineer we work with at work that has provided some "napkin" calculations (member size/length/loads) for me to use no-charge, then if I need to I can submit drawings and get them engineered/stamped if I get put on the spot. All of my dirt work is part of the permit application so any additional grading/filling for the RR will be well within the no-permit-needed limits. I know another member on here in my state that built his home RR and was told it was deemed "railroad themed landscaping" and as long as the grading and structure limits were followed that no permits were needed.
When I had initially talked to the permit office prior to purchasing the land, I had been planning on building some trails and using a farm quad and trailer to gather the firewood and take the garbage to the road, and was told that wasn't an issue provided I stayed out of any critical areas.

Glenn Brooks
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Re: 12" working railroad

Post by Glenn Brooks » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:02 am

Ryan,

I think you summed up the residential permitting/build/permit process pretty well. One additional feature of wetlands permitting, in your favor, is that sensitive areas permitting processes in Washington is governed by a unified State law and unified building codes, not individual county regulation. Thus, sensitive areas (steep slopes, wetlands, seismic risk areas, some soils) are pretty uniformity defined and managed across the state. So long as you comply with the appropriate process, and build according to grading requirements, and current building and electrical codes, I wouldn’t think you will have any unforeseen difficulties.

You are absolutely correct about the guy down in Oregon. He did everything wrong. Including no due diligence, no,permitting, building six or seven non engineered bridges and trestles across wetlands, actively flowing streams, and salmon habitat. Then bitched about how the nasty, overbearing “Government” was interfering in his freedom to harm public resources and erect sub standard structures. Not a good approach.

One additional idea that might be in your favor is to incorporate wildfire mitigation strategies into your RR right of way plan. The big emerging fire suppression tactic all up and down the west coast, is to thin out dense stands of undergrowth, and remove concentrations of deadwood fuels and ground cover from around your structures and stands of trees. I could see your ROW becoming a fire break of sorts, and an active wild fire mitigation tool for removing excess fuels from your property. Maybe something to bring up as you talk to the county building department.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

rkcarguy
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Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:33 am

I don't have much underbrush as I have a lot of tall trees to the point where there is a "canopy" , but many of them are over-mature alders and are going to need to come down so brush could grow in. There are quite a few benefits actually, I'll have rails and wheels instead of an ORV creating muddy spots and constant wear on the trails. I.E, once installed, it's the least intrusive method of transportation even compared to walking. Crossing the stream will give me access to another area outside the buffer to use for firewood, and I won't need to encroach the buffer zone with a driveway like I would have to otherwise to access the other half of the property.

rkcarguy
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Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:43 am

All my hubs came from the "surplus center" last night, so whenever I can get some lathe time I'll have 4 sprockets to bore to fit the steps on the hubs and 2 more hubs to flange to fit the 30 tooth sprockets. Surplus center sells sprockets that slip right onto the hubs step and weld on, but they are mild steel. I'm using 520 motorcycle chain and sprockets as it's all made of better steel and capable of handling more torque and HP.

rkcarguy
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Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:08 pm

Here's an application for all that Algebra we learned and never used much:

Honda GX390 11.7 HP

Hydraulic pump 1.15 cu/in per revolution. Rated 3000RPM continuous 3600RPM intermittent. Perfectly sized based on 10HP per 1.0 cu/in/rev sizing of pump.
Hydraulic motors 5.9 cu/in per revolution plumbed in series, 90-94% efficiency.

Chain drive reduction from hydraulic motors to truck axles 18/30

Wheel diameter 7"

I have about 5.6mph @ 3000RPM and 7.2mph at the 3600RPM limiter(planning to adjust my governor down on the GX390). This is still ballpark, as it will probably be faster the lower the pressure is, and slower the higher the pressure is.

rkcarguy
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Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:27 am

I finally formed the sides of my riding car hopper from 18 gage galvanized sheet metal. They have a 5/8" lip around the top, which I will reinforce with a 3/4" square tube frame. The bottom has a 1" lip that folds in almost 90* under the frame, I left a slight down angle on it so any rain that gets in the riding car will drain out the bottom. I'm still trying to see if it's possible to form some "hat channels" for the ribs on the sides, gotta play with some scraps and see if I can get the right sequence in the brake.

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NP317
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Re: 12" working railroad

Post by NP317 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:38 pm

Pictures, please!
My brain starts to hurt when trying to visualize your descriptions (which are good.)
~RN

rkcarguy
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Location: Wa State

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:17 pm

I will get some pictures up this weekend, I took them home last night and I'm at work.
The hat channel is no dice, I can't get the last bend into it unless I make it almost twice the size it should be, or torch a relief hole in the moving edge of the brake which wouldn't make work too happy. Even the smallest relieved die we have for the hydraulic brake is just too big. I'm thinking about using aluminum flat bar for the exterior ribs and router a small radius on the outside corners, but I'll lose the flange and rivets that would have come with the hat channel.....unless I make some thin strips and laminate those between the bar and the sheet metal sides, then rivet them just for looks.

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