Ottaway Project

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

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Topics may include: antique park gauge train restoration, preservation, and history; building new grand scale equipment from scratch; large scale miniature railway construction, maintenance, and safe operation; fallen flags; track, gauge, and equipment standards; grand scale vendor offerings; and, compiling an on-line motive power roster.
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FriscoJim
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Ottaway Project

Post by FriscoJim » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:27 pm

Hello Everyone,

After a post on Jack's superb bobber caboose project, the subject drifted a little off topic, so I thought it would be best to start a new thread.

I certainly appreciate the fine detail and caliber of the projects on this board. My personal projects are somewhat simpler and have less detail, but I thought you might enjoy a couple of pictures of the Ottaway that I am just about to finish up.

First, a "Before" picture:
Image

And how it looks now:
Image

I bought the remains in 2004, started the rebuild in 2006. Should have it finished by spring.
Here are links to my webpages for more pictures:
Rebuild: http://nfrailroad.com/page15.html
History: http://nfrailroad.com/page22.html
Current Progress: http://nfrailroad.com/page9.html

Thank you!
Jim P.

N&F RR - 12" Gauge Live Steam

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steamin10
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Re: Ottaway Project

Post by steamin10 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:33 pm

Hey, I am a little short on history here. The Ottowa was a later competitor to the Cagney firm is that not correct? They both built power for amusements in the 12 to 15 inch guage. Can you lay out some history of your find and restoration?
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

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FriscoJim
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Re: Ottaway Project

Post by FriscoJim » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:48 pm

I am a little fuzzy on Cagney history, but they were gone by the time Ottaway came into being. Ottaway went into production around 1946 (possibly 3 units built in 1945) and continued through about 1957. They built around 100 trains - maybe a few less - all 12" gauge, and all 4-4-0's except for two 4-6-0's. This one is #1014, believed to have been built in 1946. It is thought that production units started at #1010 - not unusual to start serial numbers at an even number like 1000, but probably started numbering production at 1010 to allow for the pre-production units and modified International Miniature loco. This is all from memory, I'll look in my files when I get home to verify the information.
Jim P.

N&F RR - 12" Gauge Live Steam

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Harlock
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Re: Ottaway Project

Post by Harlock » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:12 pm

Herb Ottaway had a whole separate life as a motorcycle racer and enthusiast. There is nice bio here: http://winfield.50megs.com/tripod/HerbOttaway.htm

Incidentally Ottaway Amusements was started with his relative Harold Chance, and later became Chance Amusements, which still exists today. Herb was a neat guy.

Here's some of the photos that Herb's nephew sent me a few years ago, which includes one of the 4-6-0s. Here is Herb and friends and family later in life at what I am guessing is his own private track.

Herb's nephew says he built 99 engines, the article says 89, so take your pick...
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Last edited by Harlock on Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
San Lorezo Flume & Lumber Co. #2 - "Felton"
Live Steam Photography and more - www.mikemassee.com
Contributing Editor, Live Steam Magazine
Webmaster, Allen Models of Nevada

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Harlock
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Re: Ottaway Project

Post by Harlock » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:13 pm

Couple more.
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San Lorezo Flume & Lumber Co. #2 - "Felton"
Live Steam Photography and more - www.mikemassee.com
Contributing Editor, Live Steam Magazine
Webmaster, Allen Models of Nevada

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FriscoJim
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Re: Ottaway Project

Post by FriscoJim » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:24 pm

Nice pictures, thanks for sharing! A lot of the Ottaways were showpieces, a lot of chrome and brightwork. I'm rebuilding mine as a more plainjane workhorse to go along with my late depression era railroad.

Chance took over train production after a couple of years, and the only records of production are from his archives. Going on memory, I think he started with #1027... I'll have to look at my serial number list when I get home. Records for the earlier years don't exist.

A quick history of my locomotive is that it was built in 1946, but I don't know the original owner or location that it was used. Early pictures do exist; but there isn't any information on them. In the 60's, it was modified into an Atlantic (4-4-2) with an extra dome casting added and the cab scooted back on the frame to make it look bigger. It was used in Winston-Salem, NC in '62 or '63, then wound up with Henry McMillan in Galva, Illinois in 1966. McMillan was a rebuilder/dealer in old park train equipment. From there it went to the WF&P railroad in Glencoe, Missouri in late '66. It wasn't in service at Glencoe very long - possibly as short as a year, but maybe a couple more - before it was sidelined with boiler and mechanical problems. Although a rebuild was started in the late 60's / early 70's, it was set aside for more pressing projects... and rightly so, because it is really too small to pull the trains that they run. The boiler is the one on display by the ticket booth, and the tender body is currently behind there International Miniature 4-4-0 #171. The Ottaway sat in the basement of the machine shop, donating a part here or there over the years for other projects, and has been underwater a few times due to the Meramac River flooding. I am an Associate Member of the WF&P, and was fortunate to buy the remains in 2004. It will make a good addition to the N&F!
Jim P.

N&F RR - 12" Gauge Live Steam

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Harlock
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Re: Ottaway Project

Post by Harlock » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:43 pm

I saw the early photo of the engine on your site and I noted that the passenger cars are identical to Herb's. I'm guessing Chance/Ottaway offered the cars as a set with the engine. I wonder how many those car sets are still around...I know of one complete set at the Emerald Hills Railway in CA. (tiny railroad that runs around a suburban house) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtelqCIN ... re=related

--M
San Lorezo Flume & Lumber Co. #2 - "Felton"
Live Steam Photography and more - www.mikemassee.com
Contributing Editor, Live Steam Magazine
Webmaster, Allen Models of Nevada

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Fender
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Re: Ottaway Project

Post by Fender » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:15 pm

Yours is a pretty major restoration, based on the photos shown. Congratulations on your accomplishment. I had the opportunity to ride the WF&P back in the mid-80s but didn't see this engine while I was there.
Dan Watson

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steamin10
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Re: Ottaway Project

Post by steamin10 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:30 pm

Ya, if that pile of rusty stuff is all you started with, you have a real Value added Engine, for sure.

I was unaware of the connection to the A.B. Chance company.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

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FriscoJim
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Re: Ottaway Project

Post by FriscoJim » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:47 pm

Harlock wrote:I saw the early photo of the engine on your site and I noted that the passenger cars are identical to Herb's. I'm guessing Chance/Ottaway offered the cars as a set with the engine. I wonder how many those car sets are still around...I know of one complete set at the Emerald Hills Railway in CA. (tiny railroad that runs around a suburban house) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtelqCIN ... re=related

--M


It is pretty common to see the original cars along with the locomotives - they were usually sold as a set, but at least one loco was sold without them - however, I don't know what happened to cars that came with this engine.
Fender wrote:I had the opportunity to ride the WF&P back in the mid-80s but didn't see this engine while I was there.
Yes, it was there, but would have been in the basement of the machine shop - in this condition - with a lot of other "Treasures." When I picked it up, the late Fred Kiesel (a patriarch of the WF&P) spent an afternoon with me and my friend Rick searching for the Ottaway parts among the rest of the old goodies. Lots of fun! It's a day I'll always remember.
steamin10 wrote:Ya, if that pile of rusty stuff is all you started with, you have a real Value added Engine, for sure.

I was unaware of the connection to the A.B. Chance company.
Same Chance Amusement that makes the ever-present "C.P. Huntington" steam outline gasser seen on many park trains today! Harold Chance took over at #1027 in 1948, last locomotive delivered was #1089 (one of the two 4-6-0's) in 1957.

Yep, that pile of rust is basically what I started with... I also received the original tender trucks which weren't in that picture. I was fortunate that two of the major castings I was missing - the smokestack and smokebox door - had been reproduced from the original Ottaway patterns by my friends at the C&H RR. Other than those two castings and normal plumbing, fittings, bearings and hardware, I built, fabricated and repaired everything else myself. I wouldn't classify it as a restoration, but as a rebuild. I tried to make it look like an Ottaway, but felt free to change the design to improve operation as needed.

I'll be glad to see it pulling trains this summer. I do plan to take it up to the WF&P at least once this year.
Jim P.

N&F RR - 12" Gauge Live Steam

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steamin10
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Re: Ottaway Project

Post by steamin10 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:00 am

Who built the boiler? Was it a redesign or according to the pattern at the park? How did you work that out?
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

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FriscoJim
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Re: Ottaway Project

Post by FriscoJim » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:09 am

I built the boiler myself. I took measurements and pictures of the old one at Glencoe, and then was lucky enough to find another old Ottaway boiler to use for reference... it probably could have been rebuilt, but sometimes it is less work just to build another one brand new. I used the same external dimensions, but it is a redesign with a number of differences from the original. I decided to use a separate smokebox to make it easier to weld in the front fluesheet and install the flues. I also designed it with an 8:1 safety factor instead of the traditional 4:1 and used copper flues instead of steel. The last big difference is that I built it as a Briggs type boiler. I know that tends to be a polarizing subject, but I just wanted the ease of fabrication for building my first boiler from scratch. I used a Fiberfrax type blanket insulation with a ceramic coating for all four sides of the firebox. I was only able to fire it up once before winter set in, but it seemed to steam just fine and it didn't feel like it was throwing off any more heat in the cab than my other engine with a traditional wet type firebox. When I run this summer, I plan on taking the external temp of both engine's fireboxes to see how they compare. As a side note, I bought enough material to build two boilers, so I can make a replacement for my other steamer. That boiler has always passed my annual hydro & inspection, but it is an old boiler that will need to be replaced someday. Since it has considerably less grate area than the Ottaway, I am planning on building it as a conventional firebox boiler since it needs every square inch of heating surface it can get.

Here is a picture of the front fluesheet welded in the barrel of the boiler. Nothing exotic about the construction; barrel is 12" schedule 40 SA-106 steel, flat parts are all 285 grade C firebox steel, staybolts are A36. Stick welded, full penetration multiple pass welds, 6011 for the root pass and 7018 for the filler and cap passes:

Image
Jim P.

N&F RR - 12" Gauge Live Steam

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