This post is not to criticize but to try and clarify. In the September 1949 Railroad Model Craftsman, Carl Purinton wrote a short article on the Brotherhood of Live Steamers. In this article, he says " Membership in the Brotherhood is open ONLY to those who have built, are building, own or are SERIOUSLY contemplating the construction of a small working steam locomotive." Thus, the New England Live Steamers was a "live steam" club.
If I go to an antique car show, I go there to see antique cars or trucks. Not old boats or planes. When I go to a gathering of Model Engineers, I expect to see all aspects of the hobby such as locomotives, stationary engines, model machines of all kinds. When I visit the H O club in Hamilton, that is what I see. They have no G or O or N scale. The name gives a clear identity to the organization. If live steam clubs are allowing other forms of model railroad transportation other than live steam into their clubs, should we maybe be changing the name of the organization to better recognize what is actually going on there. If they have no issue with other forms of motive power, they should have no issue with dropping the live steam in their name.
In a previous post, it made mention that people of today have no real idea what "steam" is. If that is true and you are trying to get new members, would a change to "Miniature Railroad Club" be something that would be more recognizable to them instead of using the words "live steam"?
When Mr Purinton helped create the "BROTHERHOOD OF LIVE STEAMERS", he included the words live steamers so there would be no confusion or misunderstanding at to what he (they) were trying to accomplish. A 100% live steam club.
BLS, LS or BS
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Steve Bratina
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Bill Shields
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Re: BLS, LS or BS
Oy...here we go...giggle...
Talk about opening Pandora's box and stirring the snakes!
Just wait a few years and all of those of us interested in steam will have died off.
The 'next generation' can rename things to be politically correct.
Seriously: Last year (2013 actually), I had the president of one of our local Steam Clubs behind the throttle of my 'steam loco'...for his FIRST TIME operating a steam anything....around the club track. He was really surprised that I offered -> but not 1/2 as surprised as I was that he was totally new to the experience.
RENAME the club? Change the name of a Corporation?
Now you are asking for an act of God!
I have to admit that the smaller scale layout at some of the tracks I visit are attracting a growing crowd.
Yes, some are steam -> which is good.
All are having fun on rails which is better...it is a safe drug!
Alas, if the name were to be changed (remove steam), then there would probably come a day when someone would say "Steam not allowed". THEN what would we do?
Some clubs have 'steam only' meets
Talk about opening Pandora's box and stirring the snakes!
Just wait a few years and all of those of us interested in steam will have died off.
The 'next generation' can rename things to be politically correct.
Seriously: Last year (2013 actually), I had the president of one of our local Steam Clubs behind the throttle of my 'steam loco'...for his FIRST TIME operating a steam anything....around the club track. He was really surprised that I offered -> but not 1/2 as surprised as I was that he was totally new to the experience.
RENAME the club? Change the name of a Corporation?
Now you are asking for an act of God!
I have to admit that the smaller scale layout at some of the tracks I visit are attracting a growing crowd.
Yes, some are steam -> which is good.
All are having fun on rails which is better...it is a safe drug!
Alas, if the name were to be changed (remove steam), then there would probably come a day when someone would say "Steam not allowed". THEN what would we do?
Some clubs have 'steam only' meets
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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hwboivin3
Re: BLS, LS or BS
C'mon Bill. Hopefully we all have more than a few years left!
I hope
When I tell people that I'm in a train club, I never say miniature. That's for G gauge and smaller! I tell them that it's a scale in one or two sizes down from the real ones.
But, I wouldn't rename anything. The roots are steam. There's just a couple seeds that sprouted some diesels.
Other than a page I visit to check the wheel standards, what does the BLS do anyway?
I hope
When I tell people that I'm in a train club, I never say miniature. That's for G gauge and smaller! I tell them that it's a scale in one or two sizes down from the real ones.
But, I wouldn't rename anything. The roots are steam. There's just a couple seeds that sprouted some diesels.
Other than a page I visit to check the wheel standards, what does the BLS do anyway?
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Marty Feldman
- Posts: 63
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- Location: Owl's Head, Maine
Re: BLS, LS or BS
Steve - It was nice to be reminded of the origins of the BLS, and of the most important role played by Carl Purinton. Thanks.
But times change. How one reacts to that is largely a function of how long one has been involved. Generally, the young turks want to expand the playground to make room for their new, cool stuff. The old hands fight tooth & nail against such sacriligious modifications of how things have always been. My leanings are with the latter group, but my sense is that things eventually fall apart if either group totally dominates the other. On the other hand, a lot of the fun also goes away if two factions exist but they are at war, or find that they can't learn from or appreciate one another. All things considered, it seems wisest to me to relax and let things evolve, even if it means giving up a bit of ground.
-Marty-
But times change. How one reacts to that is largely a function of how long one has been involved. Generally, the young turks want to expand the playground to make room for their new, cool stuff. The old hands fight tooth & nail against such sacriligious modifications of how things have always been. My leanings are with the latter group, but my sense is that things eventually fall apart if either group totally dominates the other. On the other hand, a lot of the fun also goes away if two factions exist but they are at war, or find that they can't learn from or appreciate one another. All things considered, it seems wisest to me to relax and let things evolve, even if it means giving up a bit of ground.
-Marty-
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Steve Bratina
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- Location: Cambridge Ontario
Re: BLS, LS or BS
Not opening any boxes Bill. Just wanting to ask a question and need to get into a good discussion.
From what I have picked up through various magazines, the original "live steam" clubs started out 100% steam and had a loop of track and maybe a shelter. As they began to add more and more track, buildings and other amenities, not to mention grass cutting, the number of available hands was outnumbered by the amount of upkeep required. With fewer guys going into the steam end but more seemingly interested in the diesel end, you had to allow diesel guys to join and use the track just to be able to keep the club decent looking and have a usable track. I think that if the live steam clubs today ever said" from today on, it's steam only here", a number of the clubs would loose so many members that they could never keep up with the maintenance.
We need the diesel guys. They help maintain the clubs we go to. However, here is a question for the masses to get back to the original post. If a new club was formed in, say, Worcester Mass and the majority of the members were diesel guys, what name would you give to the club? Worcester Live Steamers seems out of place. What if the club had no steam members? They need a name to relay what they do to the general public. Train Mountain looks to have a majority of diesel guys at their meets but they don't use "live steam" as an moniker. Their name seems to fit what they do quite well.
Time for thoughts from others.
(Note! I used the term diesel guys because it is easier than typing "gas or battery powered locomotives" all the time.)
From what I have picked up through various magazines, the original "live steam" clubs started out 100% steam and had a loop of track and maybe a shelter. As they began to add more and more track, buildings and other amenities, not to mention grass cutting, the number of available hands was outnumbered by the amount of upkeep required. With fewer guys going into the steam end but more seemingly interested in the diesel end, you had to allow diesel guys to join and use the track just to be able to keep the club decent looking and have a usable track. I think that if the live steam clubs today ever said" from today on, it's steam only here", a number of the clubs would loose so many members that they could never keep up with the maintenance.
We need the diesel guys. They help maintain the clubs we go to. However, here is a question for the masses to get back to the original post. If a new club was formed in, say, Worcester Mass and the majority of the members were diesel guys, what name would you give to the club? Worcester Live Steamers seems out of place. What if the club had no steam members? They need a name to relay what they do to the general public. Train Mountain looks to have a majority of diesel guys at their meets but they don't use "live steam" as an moniker. Their name seems to fit what they do quite well.
Time for thoughts from others.
(Note! I used the term diesel guys because it is easier than typing "gas or battery powered locomotives" all the time.)
Re: BLS, LS or BS
Taking your example if it was in Worcester it would be named Worcester & Southern Railway. What we all enjoy is railroading so then we should be railroads - not clubs.
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Steve Bratina
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Re: BLS, LS or BS
Railroads and not clubs. THAT makes a lot of sense. Well done!
Re: BLS, LS or BS
Why not just XYZ railroad club--main title. Leave out "club" and add to next line
Next line, Large Scale Model Trains. (club,size, rideable, ride-on)(optional words). Could also be Steam and Diesel etc. Large scale being the Main interest even though "G", # 1 gauge is now being added to a lot of tracks.
chooch
Next line, Large Scale Model Trains. (club,size, rideable, ride-on)(optional words). Could also be Steam and Diesel etc. Large scale being the Main interest even though "G", # 1 gauge is now being added to a lot of tracks.
chooch
Re: BLS, LS or BS
If you think about it, . . when folks first began hanging together to build and run miniature locomotives there WERE no electric or diesel locomotives.
GWRdriver
Nashville TN
Nashville TN
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keyrouteken
- Posts: 215
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Re: BLS, LS or BS
Hi Everybody.. I forwarded Steve's "Live Steam" topic to some other Live Steamers for their personal opinion. I am not divulging names at this time.
Live Steamer # 1 (Texas) states the following:
"When I came into the "Live Steam" hobby I came with a preference for Diesel locomotives. After all, that is mostly what I've seen in the real world (I am 52 years old). I was especially attracted to the Herschel G16 park trains with their slick F7 diesels.
But after becoming active in the hobby I had the opportunity to purchase an Allen Mogul. It opened up a whole new world for me, and now I am nuts about steam. I still like diesels, have two (a mini-F7 and a boxcab diesel). I have since acquired a Logan 14" lathe and other shop tools and purchased several steam projects (one of Charlie Purinton's 0-4-0's, a Little Engines American, an Allen 10-wheeler, and a Little Engines Hudson). Currently, I'm having a ball machining a set of MDM AAR-B trucks I've had for over 10 years.
I agree with the sentiment shared here that model railroading in general, and Live Steam in particular, are in danger of becoming extinct. I have three sons, and they are not interested in Live Steam, but rather video games and Warhammer models.
If we can bring people into the hobby with diesel power, then at some point they may switch over to LS, or add LS to their roster."
Live Steamer # 2 (also Texas) :
This is happening all through the live steam hobby. I see electric powered and gasoline powered locos even in England much less the United States and Canada. There has been much controversy about this, but things go on. Clubs, especially the long established ones, are not going to change their name, nor are they going to exclude those who don’t have steam. If they did, not many would be left to use the club facilities.
This is a model of what really happened around the world when steam died and diesels took over. Now you see it in the hobby. For the young generation, it happened for real, and so it happens in modeling. They think nothing of it.
Many today cannot afford the machinery to build steam. Nor can they afford the castings and parts, and they don’t have the know-how or the space to make a steamer. Most of the younger generation could care less about steam. Why go through all the years of expense and labor to build steam when they can buy a ready-to-run loco or inexpensive kit, flick a switch and have fun. Get tired, turn it off and take a break! Ready to go home, shove it in the truck and go. There is no clean up, nothing! Most have never seen steam.
I know where you are coming from, and it makes sense. But I don’t think you’ll see clubs change their name or restrict non-steam locos. It is what it is. We either tolerate it, get out of the hobby, or build your track and invite those who have steam.
The world has changed, unfortunately not for the best. We lived in the best of times, but they are gone.
Live Steamer # 3 (East Coast--New England) :
"I agree 100% with what this fellow says. For quite some time now, I've felt that the "Live Steam" hobby has become diluted with gas and electric "ride on" trains. Just look at the websites of many of the big clubs. You see mostly "diesel" locomotives. Same with the "Discover Live Steam" site. Mostly some sort of gas or battery "diesels" up for sale.
Here in our neighborhood we saw the same thing happening to our North East Live Steam Club. So we sort of let the Club "unravel" and the "diesel" guys went their own way and the diehard steam guys are concentrated as a small group which get together whenever they feel like it and run on one of their backyard tracks. No more "meets" as such. The same group has been building 5 identical steam locomotives over the past 8 years. Designed by Charles S. Purinton (Carl's son), all 5 are nearing completion as this is written. One of them likely will be on line by summer. They all are 0-4-0 switchers and were built completely from scratch. The builders range from people with ZERO machining experience up to those with years of experience. A local member's shop was used as the build location and the group met every Monday evening at that location to work on their locomotives. So this is a "throwback" to the old days of the 1930s and 40s. Trying to get back to the roots of the hobby.
Perhaps others are doing similar projects. The only other one that I remember was in the 1960s when 5 identical Reading camelback 0-4-0s were built in 1-1/2" scale down at the New Jersey Live Steam Club...
(more comments from same)
"
What is happening in the hobby is the delayed result of what the railroads went through in the 1950s. It only now is catching up with the hobby. The people who were in their 20s and 30s when steam exited the railroads, kept the steam going in their own way by building and running it in miniature form. Now they are, for the most part, too old to continue, and the young people have no memory of the real thing.
Of course I'm generalizing, and I know several people in their teens and twenties who are into steam, but they are a minority. As time goes on they will become even fewer.
Heck, the entire railroad hobby is up against stiff competition from all the video games and social media out there to snare kids today. Trains are not "cool" at all when compared to modern electronic entertainment. Only Thomas the Tank Engine and the Polar Express franchises have fostered ANY interest in railroading among today's kids. And both of them are "specialty" subjects, not railroading in general. Kids don't gather at the depot or wander down to the back pasture to watch trains go by anymore. That "window" into railroading is closed.
I know people in their middle years who NEVER have been on a train. People today drive or fly everywhere. Except for commuters, trains are for eccentrics, rail buffs and the elderly who have nothing but time and money to waste.
So, all together, you have now a "perfect storm" of non-interest which has come together to reduce the "live steam" hobby to near insignificance. Except in rare instances, new live steam build projects are virtually none existant. As we know, people lack the time, money, skills, shop tools and machines, and above all, the patience and WILL to tackle such projects today. I don't see that changing in the future. It's too bad, but that's how it goes."
And, in conclusion :
"We tried letting the "diesel guys" into our local live steam club 30 years ago when most "diesels" were homemade plywood "go karts" on rails. Get an old lawn mower motor, some pulleys and v-belts, a centrifical clutch, and voila, you had a locomotive. Well, we thought that those guys would soon see how much more fun steam was and they'd switch over. Didn't happen. Instead, the plywood "fruit crates" proliforated and then the scale diesel kits made of fiberglass or metal began to come out. Now you had some good looking locomotives which you could paint in your favorite railroad livery. They went from noisy gas engines to quiet electric motors. You rode around a few times on your flatcars with the folding boat chairs, holding a little electronic throttle. You now have sound effects. What's not to like? Your wife and kids can run them. No mess, no dirt, no work, but, in our opinion, not much fun either. No skill to keep it running. That's for sure.
You know it's gone bad when you see the obese women running these things while holding some ankle-biter dog under one arm. Bye, bye! "
OK--there you have other opinions to ponder over. Here's hoping all your signals are Green !
Ken Shattock
Secretary
North American Region
IBLS
www.ibls.org
"
Live Steamer # 1 (Texas) states the following:
"When I came into the "Live Steam" hobby I came with a preference for Diesel locomotives. After all, that is mostly what I've seen in the real world (I am 52 years old). I was especially attracted to the Herschel G16 park trains with their slick F7 diesels.
But after becoming active in the hobby I had the opportunity to purchase an Allen Mogul. It opened up a whole new world for me, and now I am nuts about steam. I still like diesels, have two (a mini-F7 and a boxcab diesel). I have since acquired a Logan 14" lathe and other shop tools and purchased several steam projects (one of Charlie Purinton's 0-4-0's, a Little Engines American, an Allen 10-wheeler, and a Little Engines Hudson). Currently, I'm having a ball machining a set of MDM AAR-B trucks I've had for over 10 years.
I agree with the sentiment shared here that model railroading in general, and Live Steam in particular, are in danger of becoming extinct. I have three sons, and they are not interested in Live Steam, but rather video games and Warhammer models.
If we can bring people into the hobby with diesel power, then at some point they may switch over to LS, or add LS to their roster."
Live Steamer # 2 (also Texas) :
This is happening all through the live steam hobby. I see electric powered and gasoline powered locos even in England much less the United States and Canada. There has been much controversy about this, but things go on. Clubs, especially the long established ones, are not going to change their name, nor are they going to exclude those who don’t have steam. If they did, not many would be left to use the club facilities.
This is a model of what really happened around the world when steam died and diesels took over. Now you see it in the hobby. For the young generation, it happened for real, and so it happens in modeling. They think nothing of it.
Many today cannot afford the machinery to build steam. Nor can they afford the castings and parts, and they don’t have the know-how or the space to make a steamer. Most of the younger generation could care less about steam. Why go through all the years of expense and labor to build steam when they can buy a ready-to-run loco or inexpensive kit, flick a switch and have fun. Get tired, turn it off and take a break! Ready to go home, shove it in the truck and go. There is no clean up, nothing! Most have never seen steam.
I know where you are coming from, and it makes sense. But I don’t think you’ll see clubs change their name or restrict non-steam locos. It is what it is. We either tolerate it, get out of the hobby, or build your track and invite those who have steam.
The world has changed, unfortunately not for the best. We lived in the best of times, but they are gone.
Live Steamer # 3 (East Coast--New England) :
"I agree 100% with what this fellow says. For quite some time now, I've felt that the "Live Steam" hobby has become diluted with gas and electric "ride on" trains. Just look at the websites of many of the big clubs. You see mostly "diesel" locomotives. Same with the "Discover Live Steam" site. Mostly some sort of gas or battery "diesels" up for sale.
Here in our neighborhood we saw the same thing happening to our North East Live Steam Club. So we sort of let the Club "unravel" and the "diesel" guys went their own way and the diehard steam guys are concentrated as a small group which get together whenever they feel like it and run on one of their backyard tracks. No more "meets" as such. The same group has been building 5 identical steam locomotives over the past 8 years. Designed by Charles S. Purinton (Carl's son), all 5 are nearing completion as this is written. One of them likely will be on line by summer. They all are 0-4-0 switchers and were built completely from scratch. The builders range from people with ZERO machining experience up to those with years of experience. A local member's shop was used as the build location and the group met every Monday evening at that location to work on their locomotives. So this is a "throwback" to the old days of the 1930s and 40s. Trying to get back to the roots of the hobby.
Perhaps others are doing similar projects. The only other one that I remember was in the 1960s when 5 identical Reading camelback 0-4-0s were built in 1-1/2" scale down at the New Jersey Live Steam Club...
(more comments from same)
"
What is happening in the hobby is the delayed result of what the railroads went through in the 1950s. It only now is catching up with the hobby. The people who were in their 20s and 30s when steam exited the railroads, kept the steam going in their own way by building and running it in miniature form. Now they are, for the most part, too old to continue, and the young people have no memory of the real thing.
Of course I'm generalizing, and I know several people in their teens and twenties who are into steam, but they are a minority. As time goes on they will become even fewer.
Heck, the entire railroad hobby is up against stiff competition from all the video games and social media out there to snare kids today. Trains are not "cool" at all when compared to modern electronic entertainment. Only Thomas the Tank Engine and the Polar Express franchises have fostered ANY interest in railroading among today's kids. And both of them are "specialty" subjects, not railroading in general. Kids don't gather at the depot or wander down to the back pasture to watch trains go by anymore. That "window" into railroading is closed.
I know people in their middle years who NEVER have been on a train. People today drive or fly everywhere. Except for commuters, trains are for eccentrics, rail buffs and the elderly who have nothing but time and money to waste.
So, all together, you have now a "perfect storm" of non-interest which has come together to reduce the "live steam" hobby to near insignificance. Except in rare instances, new live steam build projects are virtually none existant. As we know, people lack the time, money, skills, shop tools and machines, and above all, the patience and WILL to tackle such projects today. I don't see that changing in the future. It's too bad, but that's how it goes."
And, in conclusion :
"We tried letting the "diesel guys" into our local live steam club 30 years ago when most "diesels" were homemade plywood "go karts" on rails. Get an old lawn mower motor, some pulleys and v-belts, a centrifical clutch, and voila, you had a locomotive. Well, we thought that those guys would soon see how much more fun steam was and they'd switch over. Didn't happen. Instead, the plywood "fruit crates" proliforated and then the scale diesel kits made of fiberglass or metal began to come out. Now you had some good looking locomotives which you could paint in your favorite railroad livery. They went from noisy gas engines to quiet electric motors. You rode around a few times on your flatcars with the folding boat chairs, holding a little electronic throttle. You now have sound effects. What's not to like? Your wife and kids can run them. No mess, no dirt, no work, but, in our opinion, not much fun either. No skill to keep it running. That's for sure.
You know it's gone bad when you see the obese women running these things while holding some ankle-biter dog under one arm. Bye, bye! "
OK--there you have other opinions to ponder over. Here's hoping all your signals are Green !
Ken Shattock
Secretary
North American Region
IBLS
www.ibls.org
"
-
littleevan99
- Posts: 253
- Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:04 pm
- Location: Northern California
- Contact:
Re: BLS, LS or BS
That last opinion was kind of funny.
1.5" scale CliShay
1.5" scale 2-10-2T
2.5" 36 Ton Shay under construction
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/littleevan99
1.5" scale 2-10-2T
2.5" 36 Ton Shay under construction
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/littleevan99
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Steve Bratina
- Posts: 1061
- Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:39 pm
- Location: Cambridge Ontario
Re: BLS, LS or BS
HOLD ON THERE BOBBA LUIS!
We are veering away a bit from what I asked. It is not that the diesel guys have infiltrated the "steam club". It is that the "steam club" moniker no longer represents what is happening at the club location. I like Mudhop's idea of dropping the term live steam for railroad ( or even miniature railroad) if you are running all types of motive power at your club.
If the XYZ Live Steamers let diesel guys in, and the original group now regrets it, do they also regret the amount of work that the diesel guys put into the upkeep of the club? At our club, the diesel guys also do the majority of the public rides which puts donations in the coffee can. Can't have it both ways.
If the live steam portion is slowly dying, so be it. I just thought that the term we use to describe what we do no longer fits the bill (a paper bill and not the Shields Bill) and could we use a change in terminology to better describe what is actually happening at that location?
As a large scale model railroader, I like to look at well detailed, early model diesels in all scales. Lehigh Valley PA's would be my preference though!
We are veering away a bit from what I asked. It is not that the diesel guys have infiltrated the "steam club". It is that the "steam club" moniker no longer represents what is happening at the club location. I like Mudhop's idea of dropping the term live steam for railroad ( or even miniature railroad) if you are running all types of motive power at your club.
If the XYZ Live Steamers let diesel guys in, and the original group now regrets it, do they also regret the amount of work that the diesel guys put into the upkeep of the club? At our club, the diesel guys also do the majority of the public rides which puts donations in the coffee can. Can't have it both ways.
If the live steam portion is slowly dying, so be it. I just thought that the term we use to describe what we do no longer fits the bill (a paper bill and not the Shields Bill) and could we use a change in terminology to better describe what is actually happening at that location?
As a large scale model railroader, I like to look at well detailed, early model diesels in all scales. Lehigh Valley PA's would be my preference though!