Building a Kozo

[RET]

Hi Bill,

Yes, I think one of those could probably do the job, but from the looks of it, I doubt if I could pick one up by myself. The Boston & Albany weighs 96 pounds and that I can pick up and walk off with, but both Dart and Big boy will weigh at least 250 pounds so that isn't in the cards for me.

I'm always impressed by the level of detail that people put in these models. I also like the feel as one of them (no matter what the scale) "comes alive" under steam. I was lucky enough to be around when the full size ones were still running. The sense of quiet power you got when up close can't be matched by today's diesels even although the diesels are much more powerful and efficient.

Time marches on.

Richard Trounce.

[James Powell]

Any loco is limited to putting out about 1/4th the weight of the loco. So, if the engine is going to weigh in at 200 lb, then the maximum pulling power will be 50 lb TE. Which means, that you can run up to about 8000 lb behind it on level track. (and about 1/2 of that for every 1% of grade, or >10 of curve below 100' radius). So, if you're local track has 2% grades, the load drops to about 1000 lb (2-3 adults), which is about what I would expect as a reasonable load on a 200 lb engine without knowing the track. (That's a 0-x-0 engine, not anything with lead/trailing trucks...)

To give an idea, the 126 lb of Robin Hood (4-6-2, Britannia, built to LBSC's words & music) can pull about 1000 lb around the VIME track, which has ~2% to 3% grades & 40' radius (but 3 1/2" gauge). When I had it at Hamilton, I was heard to utter- cor, this track's flat...and I had 986 lb on the drawbar, and did 8+ MPH average speed for OMLET 2000.

Other 5" gauge tracks- there are a pair out here, with Aldergrove and VIME having 5" gauge.

A small loco will always be small, no matter what scale you chose. The practical minimums for weight of a loco is about 30 lb (Tich comes in at 24 lb, but if you are a rotund individual, then you will have difficulty with it- Juliette is much better at ~30-35 lb). My oddball (Thing) is ballasted to 52 lb, which meant it would comfortably pull me up 1:33 in dad's backyard. Lighter than that, and it had issues with wheelslip. (and that is at 12:1 off a single 5/8 by 3/4" engine). The 2000 hour estimate of the time to build an engine is in the land of reasonable assuming you have some machining skills already.

James

[Bill Shields]

Richard:

I (somewhere) have a picture of Andy Pullen with his A5 pulling at least 8-10 people.

I don't know exactly what an A5 weighs, but I would guess at least 200# if not more...not man liftable by anyone except Hulk.

have spent many hours behind a Tich so know exactly what James is describing.

Tom Thumb weighs in at just over 50# wet and will pull 2 people around any track we have visited (on dry rail!)

In reality - SIZE MATTERS - and the older I get the more I appreciate smaller.

[Kimball McGinley]

Here is a point to consider regarding power, weight, and portability. Most electric-powered locos use a car-type battery, maybe even two of them. Usually the battery can be easily removed from the chassis, for storage, or moving, etc. This means that you can load and unload a chassis, a body, and a battery separately! This would be like just lifting the heavy boiler off a steamer!

[Bill Shields]

You mean something like this?





1" loco, weighs in at around 100#

designed so that all water comes THROUGH the smoke box / saddle.

4 bolts on saddle (shown) and 3 on the drag beam and off comes the boiler, cab, pump..you name it..

Built in 1966 by George Thomas (Philadelphia area)....for when he got 'old' and not able to lift an assembled 1" loco any longer.

Man in photo is not builder.

[John_S]

This hobby is for well to do people, when it comes to steam, the rest of us run electrics.

This is so untrue it hurts. You don't have to be wealthy to build a steam loco. I sure as heck am not -- not even close!

It's about spreading the cost over time. If you spend $5000 on materials and tools over four years, that's completely affordable. If you need to purchase a boiler, start putting money away each month the day you start the project and you'll most likely have the cash in hand to outright buy the boiler when you're ready for it.

[NP317]

This hobby is for well to do people, when it comes to steam, the rest of us run electrics.

This is so untrue it hurts. You don't have to be wealthy to build a steam loco. I sure as heck am not -- not even close!

It's about spreading the cost over time. If you spend $5000 on materials and tools over four years, that's completely affordable. If you need to purchase a boiler, start putting money away each month the day you start the project and you'll most likely have the cash in hand to outright buy the boiler when you're ready for it.

I so agree! That's how I've been doing it.
No debt, just time and patience. Heck, it took me 5 years to build my Ten Wheeler, and that provided lots of saving time for the boiler. And that was while working full time, traveling a bunch, and raising two sons with the incredible help of my Mate, who worked full time, too!
It's been a wonderful life so far... Now we're both retired and moving to our dream home+shop in the woods of Northern Oregon. Here goes the next chapter...
~Russ

[Pontiacguy1]

A small 0-4-0 in 1 1/2" scale can be built in about 800 to 1000 working hours, assuming that the builder is an experienced machinist and welder. For a first-timer, you could add about 50% to that time, so then you are looking at somewhere around 1,200 to 1,500 hours. I'm talking about getting one up and running, not having all accessories and details installed and functioning too. Most locomotives are a lifetime project, because there is always something else that you want to add/change/modify as time goes on. I know that my 2-10-0 has been running for 12+ years now, and it's not finished. Every once in a while, I will add something to it, and there are things that I intend to change still.

I'm also just counting working hours, so if you have to transport stuff, setup a machine, clean up and then tear down your setup after every work session, it's going to take a lot longer. For instance, If I want to use a piece of equipment at the plant, I usually spend 30 minutes at the beginning, or longer, getting everything set up the way I want it. I then spend about the same amount of time afterwards putting everything back the way it was and cleaning up my mess. So If I'm there for 4 hours, I usually only get about 2 1/2 to 3 hours of actual work done on the project.

The length of time to build is why I never recommend to someone to build a big locomotive as their first one. Build something smaller, simpler, and with fewer parts to have to make. The quicker you can progress from a pile of castings and materials to something that will be running on air, the higher your chances are for actually completing the project and having something that will run. I've heard arguments from others that said basically: "don't waste time building something you don't want." Like Bill said earlier, I've NEVER met anyone who built a small locomotive and thought it was a waste, unless they built in a gage/scale where they didn't have anywhere they could run it. Even then, they said it was fun and they learned a lot from it, they just wished they had built it to a size they could run on a local track. They then went on to build other locomotives.

[SCBryan]

"This hobby is for well to do people, when it comes to steam, the rest of us run electrics."

I would have to agree with some of the other comments. I think it depends on how much you fabricate yourself and how much time you are willing to spend. I, too, started out building an electric (1/8 scale interuban) because I was raising two kids and was too busy with life to commit to too much expense (and also because I had not yet developed the necesary skills). On that project, I made everything (except the motors, gears, and springs). I fealt I splurged when I bought a 4QD controller! That project did not cost much at any one time but took six years to complete. But, by making things myself, I completed it for about $1000. Not too bad. Fast forward to today: I am building a Kozo Heisler. I bought a partially completed project to speed things along a little but I expect to make everything I need over the next two to three years and not spend a whole lot of money.

"Most locomotives are a lifetime project, because there is always something else that you want to add/change/modify as time goes on."

I heard something said once about a different hobby but I think it may be appropriately applied to our hobby: What did the Lord say that a Live Steamer can never say? .....It is finished!

Steve

[kenrinc]

This hobby is for well to do people, when it comes to steam, the rest of us run electrics.

I respectfully disagree. Have you ever priced an electric or gas diesel? The vast majority of buyers buy these units finished and ready to run. Were talking prices well beyond the price of a USED small live steam locomotive! Just look in the marketplace section for an F7 with no drive unit that is currently $14k!! And your saying steam is for the well to do? I would argue that the typical electric diesel loco with 12 car trains that I see out on tracks are so far beyond the cost of a typical steam engine it's almost mind boggling.

I will agree that you could build yourself a small 24v boxcab for less than $1k and have a lot of fun. No doubt. I built a GE 25ton 24v hood unit 6 months before arriving at Train Mountain my first time. Ran the pants off it and if it cost me more than a $800 I would be surprised. But I built the entire thing myself and it was specifically so I had something to run while I finished my Kozo A3. I know many who run steam and did not pay a fortune. They did put in the time to build it.

$.02

Ken-

[littleevan99]

I would have to agree about it not being only a rich man's hobby, I used to think that along with thinking I'd never acquire the skills to build one. Luckily, a little bit of monetary help from my parents, grandparents and some saved up money from holidays and birthdays provided the necessary funds to build it. Plus a couple hundred hours of labour can turn out something that runs even if it has some minor problems. From start to testing my CliShay out probably took around 800-900 hours between my grandfather and I. We still have another 100-200 hours before it has had its final coat of paint on it and it's put all back together. But, we're getting it there even if we run into a lot of roadblocks in the process. Same with making a boiler, I never thought I could do one in a million years. But, I did all the fabricating and welding and it held pressure for its hydro and brought up steam rather fast. So far my favorite thing about my locomotive has been the modular design(makes working on it easy and the boiler is held on by four 1/4" bolts) and the vertical firetube boiler that was a lot easier to make than the copper watertube one in the plans. It was definitely the right choice of first locomotive for me, and I did consider making an A3 at first(even got the book) but I would have had to scale up all the drawings to 7.5" gauge, and I couldn't even turn anything on the lathe yet.

[WJH]

Well thats the thing, you can offset cost by putting your time in. That is how I do things, I donate my time. If you can't do the work yourself, would you agree that your going to need at least 6,000$ for a ready to run steamer?
When I say well to do, from my perspective, you make more money than a Regional Airline pilot, who is paying a mortgage, child day care, and supporting his wife going back to school, and can set aside 6,000$ for a steamer.
All a matter of perspective...
I built an electric speeder, and sold it for what it cost me to make, about 1000$ if you count all the gas money, toll money, driving over the Bay Bridge to Oakland to the workshop, etc. Worked full time for 1 month on it.
All of you should share your stories more about how you managed to do it on a tighter budget, it is really good to hear these stories!