Hello
My Name is Steve
I`m a American Citizen and live in Germany for the past 40 Years
I`m building a Southern Pacific P-4 (2401) in 5" Gauge
I have a Question, can some of you help me with one of my problems ?
On the Outside of the Cab are small Letters or Numbers that i can not read from the Photos that i have
The Numbers are...
P4 P-77 23 ???????????? -SF.
28.
...does anybody know the rest of the Numbers ?
thanks to all Members ( sorry for my English )
Southern Pacific P-4
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dwilloughby
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:39 pm
- Location: North Las Vegas, NV
Re: Southern Pacific P-4
From Linn Westcott's Steam Locomotive Encyclopedia Vol I. The P4 Pacifics had a cylinder bore of 23 inches with a stroke of 28 inches. The drivers were 77 inches in diameter. Tractive effort was 29,900 pounds. So what would be on the cab would be class P4, Driver P-77, bore 23, stroke 28 and tractive effort 29900. The -SF would relate to San Francisco. P4 P-77 23 28 29900 -SF
Re: Southern Pacific P-4
Thanks for your quick reply
Look below and maybe you could tell me what the rest of the Numbers are? Thanks again
/Users/steven/Desktop/img026.tif
Look below and maybe you could tell me what the rest of the Numbers are? Thanks again
/Users/steven/Desktop/img026.tif
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Gary Bonine
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:21 pm
- Location: El Paso, TX
Re: Southern Pacific P-4
The letters "SF" indicate that the locomotive is Superheated and equipped with a Feedwater heater, The SP did not list the TE on the cab but did did list the weight on drivers . If no feed water heater there will only be the S if superheated - most all were.
The cab layout should look about like this: P-4 P-77 23/28 180 SF. Facing the writing, the P-4 will be to the viewers left, the remainder of the figures will be to the far right. The slash line between the 23 and 28 is horizontal, not angled as here and the vertical distance from the top of the 23 to the bottom of the 28 is a little longer than from top to bottom of the other figures. The weight on drivers for an SP, P class is around 180,000 lbs., it will vary from P class to P class.
The cab layout should look about like this: P-4 P-77 23/28 180 SF. Facing the writing, the P-4 will be to the viewers left, the remainder of the figures will be to the far right. The slash line between the 23 and 28 is horizontal, not angled as here and the vertical distance from the top of the 23 to the bottom of the 28 is a little longer than from top to bottom of the other figures. The weight on drivers for an SP, P class is around 180,000 lbs., it will vary from P class to P class.
Re: Southern Pacific P-4
Hallo
Thanks for your quick reply
From my knowing, the 180. is " NOT " on the outside of the Cab!
From my Photo that I have it stated.... P4 P-77 23/28 ???/B-??? -SF
The Question marks that I marked, I believe that these are Booster numbers, which I need help to identified those Numbers!
I believe my Numbers are Correct, but I,m not 100% sure. P4 P-77 23/28 276/B-118 -SF
Can anybody help me?
Thanks for your quick reply
From my knowing, the 180. is " NOT " on the outside of the Cab!
From my Photo that I have it stated.... P4 P-77 23/28 ???/B-??? -SF
The Question marks that I marked, I believe that these are Booster numbers, which I need help to identified those Numbers!
I believe my Numbers are Correct, but I,m not 100% sure. P4 P-77 23/28 276/B-118 -SF
Can anybody help me?
Re: Southern Pacific P-4
The SF lettering could be found on most of the later big locomotives, or some of the older upgraded locomotives such as the early Pacific class steamers. It did not refer to San Francisco, but instead informed the employees that the locomotive was equipped with a superheater and feed water heater.
Over the years since the end of steam, the false understanding that the SF lettering referred to San Francisco has been a ongoing problem with the younger generations willing to believe most anything they see in print and not willing to do the research to find out the real meaning.
The P-4 class Pacific was the result of a need for a higher performance passenger locomotive to pull first class passenger trains between Oakland and Sacramento. The problem was the limitations of the big car ferry at the crossing of the straits at Martinez. With no bridge at that location until later years, the weight of the locomotives had to be kept within the limitations of the big ferry. Only way to get a higher performance locomotive with little weight increase was to rebuild a P-1 into a P-4. This included a slightly higher boiler pressure, superheater, feedwater heater, and often a booster. Then one had a super Pacific with the performance of a Mountain class that would still fit the limits of the car ferry weight and length restrictions.
Often times a small lower case b might be included near the S F lettering on the cab to indicate a booster equipped locomotive if the upper case B stencil was not available. I have seen both the capitol and lower case examples depending on the paint shop where the locomotive was painted. The B indicated a booster was installed on the locomotive. If the booster was removed, the B or b would be removed and the resulting weight loss of a driving axle would mean a change of the locomotive weight on the drivers. The engine crew was paid by weight on the drivers and a booster meant a slightly bigger paycheck. Just the weight of a feedwater heater could get a steamer into the next higher pay bracket and a slightly bigger pay check.
Over the years since the end of steam, the false understanding that the SF lettering referred to San Francisco has been a ongoing problem with the younger generations willing to believe most anything they see in print and not willing to do the research to find out the real meaning.
The P-4 class Pacific was the result of a need for a higher performance passenger locomotive to pull first class passenger trains between Oakland and Sacramento. The problem was the limitations of the big car ferry at the crossing of the straits at Martinez. With no bridge at that location until later years, the weight of the locomotives had to be kept within the limitations of the big ferry. Only way to get a higher performance locomotive with little weight increase was to rebuild a P-1 into a P-4. This included a slightly higher boiler pressure, superheater, feedwater heater, and often a booster. Then one had a super Pacific with the performance of a Mountain class that would still fit the limits of the car ferry weight and length restrictions.
Often times a small lower case b might be included near the S F lettering on the cab to indicate a booster equipped locomotive if the upper case B stencil was not available. I have seen both the capitol and lower case examples depending on the paint shop where the locomotive was painted. The B indicated a booster was installed on the locomotive. If the booster was removed, the B or b would be removed and the resulting weight loss of a driving axle would mean a change of the locomotive weight on the drivers. The engine crew was paid by weight on the drivers and a booster meant a slightly bigger paycheck. Just the weight of a feedwater heater could get a steamer into the next higher pay bracket and a slightly bigger pay check.
Re: Southern Pacific P-4
Can you answer the Question above....
Can you fill in the Numbers instead of the Question marks!
Thanks
Can you fill in the Numbers instead of the Question marks!
Thanks
Re: Southern Pacific P-4
276 for the fourth number, which should be the weight on drivers, is too much. My source, "Southern Pacific Steam Pictorial" by Dunscomb and Pecotich, lists 155000 as correct for a P-4, so it would be 155. Other photos of other classes (P-3 for example, shows 141000 and photo shows 141) confirm their weight on drivers matches what Dunscomb et al list, so I trust their data. It also makes sense that the P-4 weight might be slightly heavier but close to the P-3 weight. The authors cite their primary source as the "Revised Classification and Assignment of Locomotives" booklets published by Southern Pacific every 5 to 9 years, using the booklet published at the closest prior date to a photograph. Unfortunately, I have no help on the booster number. Good luck with your research.SP-4-2401 wrote: I believe my Numbers are Correct, but I,m not 100% sure. P4 P-77 23/28 276/B-118 -SF
Can anybody help me?
John Brock
Re: Southern Pacific P-4
According to official documentation in a SP steam book by Dr. Robert Church, the weight numbers are for the weight on the drivers, not the total weight of the locomotive. This was to ensure ease of identification by crews for pay rates.
The upper set of numbers would be for the weight on the drivers if equipped with a booster. The lower number would feature the B and the weight on the booster axle.
If no booster, then the weight on the drivers would be a single set of numbers, without the horizontal line.
Depending on how you elect to construct your Pacific, it could or could not be equipped with a booster. If not booster equipped, then the driving axle weight would be the most accurate for your cab numerals.
The weight numerals and super heater S, feedwater heater F and booster B letters are all only 1 1/8 inches tall full size. No wonder the photo you are working from is difficult to read with the photography of the last century.
The upper set of numbers would be for the weight on the drivers if equipped with a booster. The lower number would feature the B and the weight on the booster axle.
If no booster, then the weight on the drivers would be a single set of numbers, without the horizontal line.
Depending on how you elect to construct your Pacific, it could or could not be equipped with a booster. If not booster equipped, then the driving axle weight would be the most accurate for your cab numerals.
The weight numerals and super heater S, feedwater heater F and booster B letters are all only 1 1/8 inches tall full size. No wonder the photo you are working from is difficult to read with the photography of the last century.
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Gary Bonine
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:21 pm
- Location: El Paso, TX
Re: Southern Pacific P-4
The following information is not for a P class but it may help with the weights. In Church's book "The 4300 4-8-2's" there is a good ( sort of ) photo of the data on the cab of MT-3 4341. This photo shows the b as B 60 which is below the driver weight as mentioned earlier. The 4341 is a larger locomotive than the P class and the weight on the trailing truck is actually 60,500 lbs. according to builder's ( SP ) stats. The P class being smaller, the weight should not exceed 4341's 60,500 lbs. The total weight of the heaviest P-4, in working order, was 265,100 lbs.
Regarding the lettering we are discussing: The locomotive data is always at the front of the cab on both sides with the locomotive class at the back.
Regarding the lettering we are discussing: The locomotive data is always at the front of the cab on both sides with the locomotive class at the back.
Re: Southern Pacific P-4
Hallo
Thanks for the Infos, I learned a little bit more about the P4, you helped me a lot!
Infos and Pictures are hard to come in Germany or in Europe
Any more Details about the P4 would be gratefully appreciated!
If anybody knows any additional numbers from the Cab, please let me know so I could finish it!
Thanks for the Infos, I learned a little bit more about the P4, you helped me a lot!
Infos and Pictures are hard to come in Germany or in Europe
Any more Details about the P4 would be gratefully appreciated!
If anybody knows any additional numbers from the Cab, please let me know so I could finish it!
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Gary Bonine
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:21 pm
- Location: El Paso, TX
Re: Southern Pacific P-4
I am a member of the Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society and have contacted them to see if I can come with some figures for the P-4. A friend who may have the information is on vacation and will see what he can find when he returns; his return date is open ended so it may be awhile.