Help with New Build Specs...
- Bill Shields
- Posts: 10459
- Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:57 am
- Location: 39.367, -75.765
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Re: Help with New Build Specs...
10 bucks it's EBT 17. Would be a neat engine to see. Might not be the best project for a first time builder, but I do not want to discourage you.
- ChuckHackett-844
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 3:54 pm
- Location: Tampa, Florida
Re: Help with New Build Specs...
Casey,
Not to dissuade you, but - Construction of a locomotive the size you are suggesting is not for the faint of heart - never mind the "design" of one.
You can not just "scale down" a locomotive when it comes to things like running gear (never mind boiler, piping, etc.) and fluid/gas flows.
The vertical curvature (humps/dips) and horizontal curvature (left, right, kinks, switches, etc.) we encounter at 7.x" gauge railroads are WAY above scale so the locomotive needs a lot of flexibility in the running gear. As the wheel-base of the locomotive gets longer this problem becomes even more important. What minimum radius curves are you planning on? Most tracks I am aware of try to keep radius above 50 feet if they expect large locomotives but this can't be guaranteed.
For example: my UP Northern 4-8-4 is known to be a very 'flexible' running engine but the center drivers have 0.200" of side play (WAY above scale) to take horizontal curvature down to about 45 feet or so and Dennis Riches (original builder of my locomotive, 1969 from Little Engines castings, 9 years to build) rebuilt the pilot truck 4 times before he got it so that the only time I derail is when there is a definite track problem (stick/rock in points, etc.).
http://whitetrout.net/Chuck/images/8444 ... t%20KC.jpg
Running at Nick Edward's track in Texas:
http://whitetrout.net/Chuck/844/photos/ ... 080234.jpg
http://whitetrout.net/Chuck/844/photos/ ... 080242.jpg
(BTW: Mike V. at Little Engines borrowed my pilot truck and "blueprinted" it and he now sells this truck for the Northern, Hudson, etc. Prints are available from Little Engines).
I would encourage you to start with at least some castings from manufacturers like Little Engines and adapt as required for your particular prototype.
In addition to all that, you have to decide what fuel you're going to use and that will effect flue count, size, etc. The fuel will also effect how you setup the smokebox, smokebox door, etc. - for coal/oil you need easy access to brush the flues, burning propane you don't need (easy) access to the flues.
As someone else mentioned I would highly recommend that you purchase a boiler from one of the hobby suppliers and that it be steel with copper flues.
Regards,
Chuck Hackett
UP 844 Northern
Not to dissuade you, but - Construction of a locomotive the size you are suggesting is not for the faint of heart - never mind the "design" of one.
You can not just "scale down" a locomotive when it comes to things like running gear (never mind boiler, piping, etc.) and fluid/gas flows.
The vertical curvature (humps/dips) and horizontal curvature (left, right, kinks, switches, etc.) we encounter at 7.x" gauge railroads are WAY above scale so the locomotive needs a lot of flexibility in the running gear. As the wheel-base of the locomotive gets longer this problem becomes even more important. What minimum radius curves are you planning on? Most tracks I am aware of try to keep radius above 50 feet if they expect large locomotives but this can't be guaranteed.
For example: my UP Northern 4-8-4 is known to be a very 'flexible' running engine but the center drivers have 0.200" of side play (WAY above scale) to take horizontal curvature down to about 45 feet or so and Dennis Riches (original builder of my locomotive, 1969 from Little Engines castings, 9 years to build) rebuilt the pilot truck 4 times before he got it so that the only time I derail is when there is a definite track problem (stick/rock in points, etc.).
http://whitetrout.net/Chuck/images/8444 ... t%20KC.jpg
Running at Nick Edward's track in Texas:
http://whitetrout.net/Chuck/844/photos/ ... 080234.jpg
http://whitetrout.net/Chuck/844/photos/ ... 080242.jpg
(BTW: Mike V. at Little Engines borrowed my pilot truck and "blueprinted" it and he now sells this truck for the Northern, Hudson, etc. Prints are available from Little Engines).
I would encourage you to start with at least some castings from manufacturers like Little Engines and adapt as required for your particular prototype.
In addition to all that, you have to decide what fuel you're going to use and that will effect flue count, size, etc. The fuel will also effect how you setup the smokebox, smokebox door, etc. - for coal/oil you need easy access to brush the flues, burning propane you don't need (easy) access to the flues.
As someone else mentioned I would highly recommend that you purchase a boiler from one of the hobby suppliers and that it be steel with copper flues.
Regards,
Chuck Hackett
UP 844 Northern
Regards,
Chuck Hackett, UP Northern 844, Mich-Cal Shay #2
Owner, MiniRail Solutions, LLC, RR Signal Systems (http://www.MiniRailSolutions.com)
"By the work, One knows the workman"
Chuck Hackett, UP Northern 844, Mich-Cal Shay #2
Owner, MiniRail Solutions, LLC, RR Signal Systems (http://www.MiniRailSolutions.com)
"By the work, One knows the workman"
Re: Help with New Build Specs...
To answer the question about copper firetubes, type K is normally used, and are rolled/expanded into steel tube sheets. The tube diameter depends on their length and the fuel to be used.
Another factor you should consider is the axle loading and total weight. Many clubs restrict the maximum axle loading, and 2500 lbs may be too much for their bridges.
Another factor you should consider is the axle loading and total weight. Many clubs restrict the maximum axle loading, and 2500 lbs may be too much for their bridges.
Dan Watson
Chattanooga, TN
Chattanooga, TN
Re: Help with New Build Specs...
And a great big 'ditto' to that!ChuckHackett-844 wrote:Casey,
Not to dissuade you, but - Construction of a locomotive the size you are suggesting is not for the faint of heart - never mind the "design" of one.
You can not just "scale down" a locomotive when it comes to things like running gear (never mind boiler, piping, etc.) and fluid/gas flows.
ETC......
Chuck Hackett
UP 844 Northern
BClemens
-
- Posts: 2930
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
- Location: Woodinville, Washington
Re: Help with New Build Specs...
A 16" boiler loco, balanced on 7 1/2" ga track, puts the center of gravity of the loco quite high for very narrow gauge track. It will likely be unstable and prone to capsize now and then, particularly with derailments. Not a pleasant prospect to deal with on a regular basis. Have you considered building it to run on 12" gauge, or 15" gauge track? The size loco you contemplate will be somewhere around 1/4 to 1/3 scale size - which works really well in the 12"-15" gauges. These are fascinating scales to work in.
Glenn
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
- Dick_Morris
- Posts: 2841
- Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:09 pm
- Location: Anchorage, AK
Re: Help with New Build Specs...
I understand that the Texas law used the Alaska law as a model. Pay attention to the administrative regulations as well. In Alaska, they also affect whether a boiler is exempt. The law specifies "miniature boiler" while the regulation defines miniature boiler it the same way ASME does. Part of the definition is a 100psi limit.
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- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:16 pm
Re: Help with New Build Specs...
Dick_Morris:
More than likely I will have the boiler built. Rough idea is to have all of the individual pieces of the smoke box boiler and firebox be cut, and taken to a shop to be assembled and tested. I trust myself to weld most mechanical things, but not sure how well I trust myself to not build a bomb!! I will also look a the books you suggested, Thanks! And, to your last post, I will definitely have to check on psi rules, as this will effect everything else.
Trainman4602:
Definitely big narrow gauge...
Bill Shields:
I have scratch built steam locos in other scales, but not live steam. My motto is to always go big or go home!! Everyone has a first model, I would rather build something I want, than something I don't.
Ken G:
I will consult someone qualified in boiler work before any cutting and pasting takes effect. There are several clubs and layouts here in the DFW area, with a lot of talented operators. I will also look into the Ulin / Alco West plans, thanks!
Marty_Knox:
Thanks for the info. I did see the same hobby exemption rules before. I am still a little curious about that "or." All other requirements will be completely met.
Chuck Hackett-844:
Please feel free to critique me in any way. I am not afraid of large projects. We are still in the consideration phase right now, and barely any plans have been drawn. 50 ft radius curves will be the minimum goal. It seems this is the most common number that comes up when you research radius requirements. I have seen similar models with very similar wheel bases make this curvature. I have faith ours will too. I have been to Nick Edwards layout, it is amazing. It was probably the first time I got to see scale live steam in this gauge. As for fuel, coal would be desired, but propane would be easier. Still working on that...
Glenn Brooks:
Actual boiler dimensions will most likely be 15.5 smoke box, 15 od 14.25 id boiler. There are models similar to these that have worked, I'm sure quality of track makes a lot of difference here though. Again, still in the "what are we about to get into" phase.
Thanks to all, and keep in coming.
Casey
More than likely I will have the boiler built. Rough idea is to have all of the individual pieces of the smoke box boiler and firebox be cut, and taken to a shop to be assembled and tested. I trust myself to weld most mechanical things, but not sure how well I trust myself to not build a bomb!! I will also look a the books you suggested, Thanks! And, to your last post, I will definitely have to check on psi rules, as this will effect everything else.
Trainman4602:
Definitely big narrow gauge...
Bill Shields:
I have scratch built steam locos in other scales, but not live steam. My motto is to always go big or go home!! Everyone has a first model, I would rather build something I want, than something I don't.
Ken G:
I will consult someone qualified in boiler work before any cutting and pasting takes effect. There are several clubs and layouts here in the DFW area, with a lot of talented operators. I will also look into the Ulin / Alco West plans, thanks!
Marty_Knox:
Thanks for the info. I did see the same hobby exemption rules before. I am still a little curious about that "or." All other requirements will be completely met.
Chuck Hackett-844:
Please feel free to critique me in any way. I am not afraid of large projects. We are still in the consideration phase right now, and barely any plans have been drawn. 50 ft radius curves will be the minimum goal. It seems this is the most common number that comes up when you research radius requirements. I have seen similar models with very similar wheel bases make this curvature. I have faith ours will too. I have been to Nick Edwards layout, it is amazing. It was probably the first time I got to see scale live steam in this gauge. As for fuel, coal would be desired, but propane would be easier. Still working on that...
Glenn Brooks:
Actual boiler dimensions will most likely be 15.5 smoke box, 15 od 14.25 id boiler. There are models similar to these that have worked, I'm sure quality of track makes a lot of difference here though. Again, still in the "what are we about to get into" phase.
Thanks to all, and keep in coming.
Casey
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- Posts: 1724
- Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:50 pm
- Location: Michigan, USA
Re: Help with New Build Specs...
Dick, the Texas Law did not use the Alaska rules as a model - the examples cited were the Illinois and New York rules. This took place back in the late 80's and early 90's. I think I still have the documentation somewhere. I left Texas in January of 1990; it was sometime after that the law was passed.Dick_Morris wrote:I understand that the Texas law used the Alaska law as a model. Pay attention to the administrative regulations as well. In Alaska, they also affect whether a boiler is exempt. The law specifies "miniature boiler" while the regulation defines miniature boiler it the same way ASME does. Part of the definition is a 100psi limit.
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- Posts: 302
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:35 am
- Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: Help with New Build Specs...
EBT Large Mike in 2.5" scale would have a 14" smokebox dia. The boiler could be 14" pipe (actual 14" OD) without lagging or a 12" Pipe (Actual 12.75" OD) with lagging...
My next Project after the shay is #18
My next Project after the shay is #18
Re: Help with New Build Specs...
K36 in 2.5 is 14" od boiler. Its got to be a two footer, and a big one at that. Its either the SR&R: 10, 23, or the Scidia/Mysore 2-8-2 locos.
Build the locomotive that is so interesting to you that the project will keep you excited, no matter how long It takes, or how big it is. You may never get to build another one, you never know.
Let us know when you can what your thinking of building.
Build the locomotive that is so interesting to you that the project will keep you excited, no matter how long It takes, or how big it is. You may never get to build another one, you never know.
Let us know when you can what your thinking of building.