Please Help Identify This Loco

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Hero
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Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by Hero »

Hello, all,

I' m new to this forum and relatively ignorant of live steam locomotives. I do, though, have what looks like an American locomotive of some sort (Baldwin?) that I acquired a number of years ago and put on a shelf. I think that it's time to take it off the shelf and see what I can do with it, but first I guess I need to identify it, as there may be drawings out there to help me.

Here's what I know. It's a 3.5" gauge spirit-fired 4-6-0 loco with a copper boiler that looks to have been riveted and caulked with soft solder. There are no bushings in the boiler; as far as I can tell, every fitting has been screwed into the soft copper. The axles are un-sprung and there are no bushings or bearings that I can see in the frame rails: someone seems to have just let the axles roll in drilled holes. There is evidence of considerable use everywhere, and the loco seems to have suffered a fire, which is said to have led to someone's partial disassembly of the loco in order to "fix" it. Workmanship is generally uninspired.

By the time I received the loco someone had lost many parts, among them the pressure gauge, the smokebox door, the firebox door, the light, the bell, one of the dome covers, and both connecting rods. There may even have been a tender at one time, I was told, though there certainly isn't one now.

Oddly enough, despite all the carnage, when I mocked up a pair of plywood (!) "connecting rods" and applied a bit of air, the engine ran very smoothly in both directions. This makes me think that it might be salvageable with a new boiler and a lot of rebuilding.

I would really appreciate help in identifying what I have here, as well as frank comments on the viability of rebuilding this old girl. I have a thick skin, so don't spare the comments. Besides, it will always look good, even as a sort of archaeological display like the Antikythera mechanism☺

Attached are photos of what it looked like before someone started to "fix" it, and when I received it. And no, I didn't spend very much for it!
Attachments
Baldwin Loco 6.jpg
Baldwin Loco 1.jpg
Baldwin1.jpg
2006_1127_163402AA.JPG
2006_1127_163242AA.JPG
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Bill Shields
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Re: Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by Bill Shields »

unless is has some emotional / historic value to you, it looks like more trouble than it is worth except as a possible display piece.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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kcameron
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Re: Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by kcameron »

Since you say it will run on air, there is a chance. Absence of suspension makes me wonder about how it would do on real track. So for that question you'd have to say where you are and if there are any 3.5" tracks in your area. If there isn't a track around, I'd question the value of the work it might need. My understanding about spirit boilers is they run at low pressures like 40 lbs or so. To see how the boiler is, you'd need at least a hand pump and gauge to test with. That would find if you had any leaks. If not, then the boiler has a chance.

So what area are you in and if there are anybody who has similar equipment to help you with. But even just running on air it would make a nice demo display piece.
-ken cameron
Syracuse Model Railroad Club http://www.SyracuseModelRr.org/
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mailto: kcameron@twcny.rr.com
In the Upstate New York US area of the world
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dnevil
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Re: Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by dnevil »

You may want to look through Bill Yoder's 3/4 inch scale registry. You might find other locomotives that use the same wheel castings.

http://ibls.org/mediawiki/index.php?tit ... e_Registry

I'm sure Bill will want to add this to the registry.

Daris
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SteveM
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Re: Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by SteveM »

You should add your location in your profile. There may be members nearby that can help.

The big thing as far as actually using it is going to be the boiler (been there - had a shot at a nicely built loco, but the boiler had problems). You will need, as Ken said, a pump and gauge to test it. Do a search on the forum for "hydrostatic test" and you should find some information.

Something like this is ideal:
Image
but you can rig something up with a pump, a gauge, some valves, hoses and connectors.

A local club may have a test rig ready and waiting and can do the test for you (another reason to share your location).

Repairing a boiler is an iffy proposition to the untrained (and the people who REALLY know what they are doing probably won't touch it, which should tell you something).

If the boiler is toast, you may still want to get it running on air just for fun. Then you can use it as a display piece with a valve on a hose running to your compressor and have it run on the display stand.

Good luck with it and let us know how things go.

Steve
Hero
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Re: Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by Hero »

Thank you all for your observations and comments thus far. I note that 75% of respondents use the word "display", as did I in the initial post. Do you suppose that I'm being told something?

As for pressure-testing the boiler (thanks, Steve, for the picture of the pump; it looks almost exactly like one I found at a yard sale about three weeks ago), it looks like I could do that at low pressure to see if it leaks, and then perhaps fit it with a really weak safety valve, kinda a la Wilesco, so that I could run it on a stand with short wicks, little fuel, and really low pressure....

Needless to say, for reasons that are becoming increasingly clear I can't see that I'll ever be able to actually drive this thing on a track in public!
Kimball McGinley
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Re: Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by Kimball McGinley »

You can probably get more than enough pressure with a garden hose; most houses are around 60-70 psi. A local hardware store will sell you a hose-end pressure gauge so you know what you have. If you have an adjustable water pressure regulator, you might be able to reduce it for the hydro. I would not, however, raise the household pressure at all; that could cause other issues.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by Bill Shields »

you will be surprised at how much heat it will take to get any pressure out of that boiler...it's a LOT of copper and wasted radiating surface.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
Hero
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Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:42 pm

Re: Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by Hero »

Hm. Air is sounding better all the time.

Still have to make parts, though (sigh)....

Here's another view of it before I got it, showing the spirit firing more clearly.

Still no ID, though. Does anyone have any idea at all?
Attachments
Baldwin Loco 2.jpg
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Hero,

There are a couple of very knowledgeable people on the forum who are experts on these antique models. Hopefully, one or more will offer some suggestions.

I do think you have located one of the model loco's from the true pioneer days of live steam. The copper and bronze components, as well as the 4-6-0 wheel arrangement, probably date your model from 1880 to around 1900, or thereabouts. There was considerable interest in model locomotive building and operation a long time before the modern live steam hobby achieved province. And you loco is a fine example of the early day work that a handful of model makers produced and sold around the country. Indeed these loco's laid the foundation for what we know today as 'Live steam'. Your engine irepresents the very beginning of the hobby. Iam surprised people have commented so negatively about restoration.

Personally I think it would be a grand thing if you restored this loco. One of the advantages of small gauge is you can set up a small and inexpensive track to operate it. You could easily put together a garden railroad style track to operate it, and like many, theme out the track with period structures and rolling stock.

These boilers were often alcohol fired and as one poster mentioned above, operated on low pressure. So if you have an inclination - Go for it!

Two sources you might wish to inquire are the Knots Bery Farm model train museum, and also search on line for contacts for the antique model locomotive association. At one time, Knots Berry train museum employed an expert model curator. They may be able to help identify your model. The model train people specialize in collecting these vintage pieces.

Hopefully, one of our knowledgeable collectors will log on and help out also.

Regards
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Hero
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Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:42 pm

Re: Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by Hero »

Thanks, Glenn, for your informative and encouraging comments.

Following your suggestions, I poked about the Internet and came up with a loco similar to mine which was sold recently on eBay:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/172391618848?rmv ... noapp=true

The seller described his loco as being built around 1920, and the fellow from whom I obtained mine assigned the same date to mine (unfortunately, he was not the builder and knew very little about the engine other than that).

If my loco really is an early example, it would indeed be worth restoring. Perhaps other viewers of this thread could volunteer more information to help.

Of course, I'm already hooked, and will be keeping it to restore no matter what....
Glenn Brooks
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Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Please Help Identify This Loco

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Hi Hero,

Couple of questions about the loco. Do you still have the steam dome outer shell, bell, and headlight? These parts appear on one of your photos but not the pics showing yellow metal cab...

It's quite possible of course that the loco was built in the 1920's. However the interesting features of the design represent a ten wheeler prototype in use before the turn of the century. So I still think an earlier build is entirely possible. In those days model builders commonly reproduced the locomotives they were familiar with, and that were readily available for inspection and measurement. Hence your loco's spoked front truck wheels, medium size straight sided smoke stack, placement of the headlight on top of the boiler, arched window in the cab, and wagon top boiler style were certainly modeled after an 1880's era loco. I've seen models built early 1900's with a similar arched cab window design. But can't for the life of me remember where, at the moment.

The other unusual cab detail on your model are the small round windows on the back of the cab. This might be a distinctive builder detail.

So,you have some interesting features on the loco that may help guide your search for the original builder. Good winter project - I like to think of it as Internet archeology.


P.S. Keith Taylor, a retired RR engineer and model collector just emailed to say:

"Arched windows on cabs is very common on Eastern roads. The Southern had many Ten Wheelers with similar cabs and arch window cabs were standard on locomotives on the New York, New Haven and Hartford railroad.
Keith"

So you might concentrate your research in these areas - particularly if you acquired the loco from these regions.

Let us know how your search progresses .

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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