INJECTOR UPDATE

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Rich_Carlstedt
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby Rich_Carlstedt » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:28 pm

Dan
Manganese Bronze was his favorite alloy, after Cast iron.
He was a master pattern maker by trade and did a lot of Manganese Bronze at work, so I assume that is where his knowledge carried him.
I had no experience with the material as I worked with dies and die steels at the time , so D 2 , S 7 and 4340 seemed tougher than M Bronze.

Rich
PS I don't want to mislead anyone
Em did do lost wax castings, just not for the injector bodies. The clacks were lost wax and the cones were made from solid

Rwilliams
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby Rwilliams » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:19 am

I spoke with Barry in regards to the current quality of his Simplex injector body castings about 10 years ago. To eliminate problems, he had upped the wax inspection level and even hand delivered the waxes to the foundry in order to avoid UPS damage in shipping. What he could not control was the foundry problems including less experienced help. At that point he was finding that 50% of the Simplex body castings, although looking good on the outside, had internal flaws revealed during machine work. The 50% loss was one thing that helped to drive the price of the surviving injector parts way up. I believe the loss rate was one of the reasons he was not real excited to produce another run of the Simplex injectors once he had decided to sell the business.

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Trainman4602
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby Trainman4602 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:26 pm

Hi All

Before I set up to make my own castings I went to a so called good investment foundry. Years ago they made all the valve gear parts for the K4. The quality was great. The last time I used them they made a mess out of the parts. He told me it would be about two weeks to receive them. Five months later I get terrible castings I would not pay for them . I then set up my foundry with the help of David Flowers.

I can control the quality and delivery. I am making a run of starter valves I cast 32 bodies and all the other parts in one week. I can turn them out quickly and with good quality. The same goes for the safety valves. I'm setting up to make another run. this week I'll make all the castings and at the end of the month I will be testing them. A quarter of the time it took just to receive the castings from the foundry.
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Mike Walsh
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby Mike Walsh » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:49 pm

Trainman4602 wrote:Hi All

Before I set up to make my own castings I went to a so called good investment foundry. Years ago they made all the valve gear parts for the K4. The quality was great. The last time I used them they made a mess out of the parts. He told me it would be about two weeks to receive them. Five months later I get terrible castings I would not pay for them . I then set up my foundry with the help of David Flowers.

I can control the quality and delivery. I am making a run of starter valves I cast 32 bodies and all the other parts in one week. I can turn them out quickly and with good quality. The same goes for the safety valves. I'm setting up to make another run. this week I'll make all the castings and at the end of the month I will be testing them. A quarter of the time it took just to receive the castings from the foundry.


So, uh, you get mad when people post stuff on your threads that challenge or compete with what you are saying/selling, but are OK with posting on other's threads to sell your stuff?

Ironic...

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Fender
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby Fender » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:44 pm

I don't take Dave's comments that way at all. It seems as though the common theme here is the inability of many commercial foundries to produce a quality product, which appears to be a widespread problem. So much so, that making one's own castings may be a viable solution. I haven't heard anyone respond by saying that "I use the xyz foundry, and they do great work!
Dan Watson

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Trainman4602
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby Trainman4602 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:26 pm

Ok so Where is Anthony. He can comment as well. I'll start another thread to make you happy Mike. No Problem.

BTW I was thinking this thread has been high jacked so I'll keep my mouth shut.
Mike can you add anything to the questions about casting or porosity in casting or foundry work in general?
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LivingLegend
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby LivingLegend » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:08 pm

Rwilliams wrote:I spoke with Barry in regards to the current quality of his Simplex injector body castings about 10 years ago. To eliminate problems, he had upped the wax inspection level and even hand delivered the waxes to the foundry in order to avoid UPS damage in shipping. What he could not control was the foundry problems including less experienced help. At that point he was finding that 50% of the Simplex body castings, although looking good on the outside, had internal flaws revealed during machine work. The 50% loss was one thing that helped to drive the price of the surviving injector parts way up. I believe the loss rate was one of the reasons he was not real excited to produce another run of the Simplex injectors once he had decided to sell the business.


The first production run of Barry's Simplex injector began around the end of 1983 and continued through the spring of 1984. At that time, quality control at the l.A. area foundries was considerably better than in recent years. A number of years ago, Barry told me of the problems he was having with the foundry's.... But of that first (1980s) run of injectors, the body casting loss rate was minimal. I know because I machined around half of them. As they say, then was then, now is now, and then ain't now.

A bit of history..... The first Simplex injector to be mounted on an engine from that first production batch went on Jim Kreider's 4-4-2. I remember driving down to Jim's house where Jim was finishing some work on the engine the night before we (Jim, Barry, and I) were to leave for the 1984 Maricopa Live Steamers meet. I helped Jim get his engine ready by silver soldering a couple of the injector's pipe fittings and making new grates. The Maricopa meet was the public debut of the Simplex to the hobby.

I also remember a month or so later at the Spring LALS meet. Barry had a few of the Simplex at his display table. I overheard some people complaining about the high price (the price of the first run was $350 each) and how they could buy an Ohlenkamp for $85. I told them on the side it was a bargain considering what was involved to manufacture them and I knew first hand because I did the majority of the machine work on them.

Ah.... Memories of the good ol' days.

LL
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Mike Walsh
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby Mike Walsh » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:39 pm

Trainman4602 wrote:Ok so Where is Anthony. He can comment as well. I'll start another thread to make you happy Mike. No Problem.

BTW I was thinking this thread has been high jacked so I'll keep my mouth shut.
Mike can you add anything to the questions about casting or porosity in casting or foundry work in general?


Sure. Anthony - do you know what the Foundry's processes are for processing the metal? They should be fluxing, degassing, and taking specific gravity samples at certain intervals during the run. For a small, to them, run of injectors, probably one, maybe two SG samples would be taken.

You can, however, specify certain specifications. I haven't worked with Bronze, so I can't really help you there.

Another criteria could be a specification for leak testing and/or x-ray review. Since you are working on a pressurized vessel (of sorts), I would suggest that you tell the foundry that you have a specification for leak test (0 leak test etc), and/or x-rayed porosity. The porosity will fall in two categories -- shrinkage or gas porosity. If you have any loupes, you can break open one of your castings and look at the shrinkage close up to determine if it is gas or shrinkage. Shrinkage will have lots of jagged edges and gas porosity will be smooth and rounded. At work I always make the shrinkage connection when looking in the microscope, that it resembles the asteroid on "Armageddon". Your price per casting may go up, however since you are specifying the criteria, they must meet it or reject it. And you can throw it back at them if they fail to meet the agreed upon criteria.

If you need help, send me a PM sometime. I can share my advice based on what I've learned as a Foundry Engineer.

Have fun.
-Mike

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Rich_Carlstedt
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby Rich_Carlstedt » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:36 am

Hey LL, I remember the 1985 LALS meet, as I had a booth at that meet.
I also remember buying an Injector from L & M Machine who had injectors, whistles, stainless steel couplers, and other products that were "CNC Machined "
Have never used it, so have no comment on quality, but it looked good to me

rich

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LivingLegend
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby LivingLegend » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:28 pm

Hey, Rich.... The 1985 meet was the IBLS meet at LALS. Barry's Nathan was first displayed at the 1984 meet. I've drawn a blank on the L&M injector. There was an L.S. injector.

LL
Do it right.... Or don't do it at all
I have no life. Therefore, I have a hobby
It's not that I'm apathetic, I just flat don't care
An Intellectual is nothing more than an Over-Educated IDIOT
Blogs: Where people with nothing to say..... Say it

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Fender
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby Fender » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:38 pm

Sounds to me that the ability to commercially-produce quality castings (in a small run typical for live steam suppliers) has become a lost art, like the making of damascus steel swords. Older skilled craftsmen were lost to retirement, and were not replaced by people with the same skills.
Dan Watson

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Trainman4602
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Re: INJECTOR UPDATE

Postby Trainman4602 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:25 pm

Not to think I am high jacking but just to mention. I buy a lot of machinery from Cook tool and machinery in Sicklerville NJ. I have known the Cook brothers Tommy and Jim for forty years. When I go there looking for things I need for the shop Tommy always says " The guys who know how to run this equipment are all in the grave yard". Not all Tommy I'm still here.
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