Steel wheel tires - welding?

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Bastelmike
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Location: NRW, Germany

Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by Bastelmike » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:21 am

Hello all,

I need 8 wheel tires with OD ~ 10,5".

I know of 3 ways to get the raw material.

1) steel tubing. Its difficult to get with enough wall thickness here. If You find some, usually you have to buy a cmplete bar - 20 ft. Don't need more than 1 1/2 ft yet.

2) cutting from plate. Easy to get here, but cutting (torch or plasma) isn't cheap and you have to buy all the material. They bill you the full square area from which the ring was cut. So not cheap too, and what to do with the leftover pieces in strange shape.

3) ring rolling. There is a sheet metal shop with a heavy ring roller nearby. They would roll it from flat bar and I could weld it together before turning them to dimension. They offer the best price.
From history I know that in 19th century tires for railcars have been welded (forge welding?), but many of these tires broke and caused lots of derailments. In Europe this ended with the invention of the seamless wheel tire by Alfred Krupp in the 1860s.


My question is, would these stick welded tires break in model railroading? Anyone here who has done it and willing to talk about his experience with welded wheel tire?

Mike

BClemens
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Re: Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by BClemens » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:37 am

Mike,
Rolling and welding barstock should not be such a problem to get the weld integrity that you will need. They may need to be annealed after welding. It's not like a full sized locomotive with the massive stresses and strength required of the tires. Although - http://specialtypipe.com/home/products/ ... r-seamless - may have what you need in short 'drops' and slicing off the size you require and machining it for a shrink fit on the wheel center would be so much easier than any other means. Cutting rings out of plate will cost more than either of the other methods...and very inefficient too to machine.

We just did this very thing: bought heavy walled tubing for tires on this mogul since the correct size driver castings are not available. - - - from this source.
BC

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shayloco
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Re: Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by shayloco » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:01 am

I have bought thick wall pipe cut-offs from Speedy Metals. They sell by the inch. This was a good deal until they started adding a "specialty fee" or whatever they called it. They claim no cutting fees, but that is just what the specialty fee is. However, you may still find that buying thick wall pipe cut-offs from them is a way to go.

Having plate cut has also worked as the price for the "donut" cut out is generally less than what the material would have cost me. And they will usually throw in the center cut out which I use to make freight car wheels. Depends how they start the cut, you have to tell them to make a minimal starting cut otherwise the center drop has a deep cut in it.

I have never had any trouble machining flame cut material.

Ask around locally.

John Hasler
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Re: Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by John Hasler » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:26 am

shayloco writes:
> I have bought thick wall pipe cut-offs from Speedy Metals. They sell by the inch. This was a good deal until they started adding a "specialty fee" or whatever they called it.

What did you order that got that? I just ran a dummy order for DOM tubing and I see no added fees. In fact, on the last order I placed with them (some Delrin rod) the didn't even charge shipping.

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cbrew
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Re: Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by cbrew » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:31 am

I have also ordered rings from Speedy metal and never seen any "specialty fee". unless they will not ship to Germany, it may be the best way to go. the second choice would be to have blanks laser cut from A36 plate. flame cut would be the last option.
tires.jpg
as delivered
cooking tires.jpg
old BBQ works well for heating the tires for install on the wheel centers
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.

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Greg_Lewis
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Re: Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by Greg_Lewis » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:51 am

You might also check to see if there is a local scrapyard that would let you poke around for material. That's what I did and I found bits of plate that were close enough to the right thickness. I paid the scrapyard price, which was a few cents per pound, and cut the donuts using a flame cutting thingy at the local community college that followed my pattern. In the end, including the gas I burned to drive to the scrapyard, I don't think I've got $15 in the whole set.
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of non-interchangeable parts.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 30 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.

Bastelmike
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Location: NRW, Germany

Re: Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by Bastelmike » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:56 am

cbrew wrote:I have also ordered rings from Speedy metal and never seen any "specialty fee". unless they will not ship to Germany, it may be the best way to go. the second choice would be to have blanks laser cut from A36 plate. flame cut would be the last option.
Hi,

just tried to order some tubing from them. Looks like they will ship to Germany :D
My order is 50 lbs steel for $184. :)
UPS expediture freight is $578 :shock: :shock: :shock:

So I halted the ordering process.

Probably welding is the route to go

Mike

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cbrew
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Re: Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by cbrew » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:01 pm

Bastelmike wrote:
cbrew wrote:I have also ordered rings from Speedy metal and never seen any "specialty fee". unless they will not ship to Germany, it may be the best way to go. the second choice would be to have blanks laser cut from A36 plate. flame cut would be the last option.
Hi,

just tried to order some tubing from them. Looks like they will ship to Germany :D
My order is 50 lbs steel for $184. :)
UPS expediture freight is $578 :shock: :shock: :shock:

So I halted the ordering process.

Probably welding is the route to go

Mike
give them a call and see if there are "options" for shipping. sometimes the canned quoting software is on crack.
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.

Bastelmike
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:27 pm
Location: NRW, Germany

Re: Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by Bastelmike » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:16 pm

Hi cbrew,

I will send them an email. phone calls by handy to the states aren't cheap here too.

I general its my experience that any ordering in the states is way too ineffective because of high shipping rates. A 0.1 kg part from Germany with poastal service is ~4.30 €, from US to Germany you pay more or less $20. Freight from China is also cheaper than from the States.
Seems as if US transportation industry is making huge profits with foreign shipping.

And there's a US President complaining US exports are too low...

Mike

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Greg_Lewis
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Re: Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by Greg_Lewis » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:29 pm

Another thought would be to ask a local supplier if he would refer you to one of his customers who buys the stuff regularly. That customer then might have a remnant he'd sell you. Around here we have a couple of machine shops that sell off their remnant racks.
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of non-interchangeable parts.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 30 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.

Glenn Brooks
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Re: Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by Glenn Brooks » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:49 pm

This is a great thread! I had no idea one could buy thick walled pipe in so many diameters. And in 4140. Talk about hardened steel wheel!! Wow.

What is the difference in thick walled pipe and thick wall steel tubing ??? I see the supplier lists 10" X1.250" pipe and the same thickness in thick wall tubing. Why would one choose one or the over?

Glenn
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

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Harold_V
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Re: Steel wheel tires - welding?

Post by Harold_V » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:39 pm

Glenn Brooks wrote:This is a great thread! I had no idea one could buy thick walled pipe in so many diameters. And in 4140. Talk about hardened steel wheel!! Wow.

What is the difference in thick walled pipe and thick wall steel tubing ??? I see the supplier lists 10" X1.250" pipe and the same thickness in thick wall tubing. Why would one choose one or the over?

Glenn
Pipe and tubing, while the same thing to the novice, are not the same thing. Pipe is made to specific sizes (schedules), and is measured by the theoretical inside diameter (which isn't really the same as the designation), while tubing is measured by the outside diameter, and generally provided with a wall thickness dimension, so inside diameter can be calculated, assuming it isn't included in the description. Depending on the size, multiple sizes of wall thickness are available.

The rule of pipe size measurement changes once past 12" pipe. Beyond that size, pipe, too, is measured by the OD. Wall thickness is still by schedule.

All in all, very confusing for the novice.

Keep your eyes open for an Earle Jorgensen stock list. All of this information is contained within, along with designations for ferrous and aluminum alloys in bar, plate and sheet, and even some mention of billet (a term that is badly overused by the novice). A very handy reference. So you have an idea what to look for, here's an example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/C1-Steel-Alumin ... Swxk9ZlJVX

Pipe is often rolled and welded, while tubing can be made my various processes, including DOM, which yields a seamless material. Tubing generally offers a much wider selection.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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