LITTLE ENGINES

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NP317
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by NP317 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:08 am

Interesting subject, and worthy of this discussion.
I support our hobby suppliers in their efforts to gain some protection for their products. The alternative:
Loss of these suppliers.

I have always made an effort to purchase directly from our suppliers, respecting the costs and effort they make to design, produce, and supply their products to us. Sometimes it might seem to cost more in the short term, but that's better than no suppliers! I have waited, saving up my money to make these purchases, despite availability of less expensive knock-offs.
In our small hobby world, we get what we pay for. If you want available drawings, parts, and support, expect to pay for this. I try not to purchase knock-offs, or stolen designs.

Example: I am looking at changing the valve gear of my Allen Ten Wheeler (parts and drawings purchased from Gene Allen) to the Baker valve gear now used on the Allen Consolidation. So I purchased the drawings and casting from Steve Alley, now owner of the Allen Locomotive business. This meets my needs and supports Steve in his efforts to preserve and enhance the Allen Locomotive business. Yes, I could have gotten copies of the drawings from others in the hobby, but that fails to support our suppliers. So Thank You, Steve, for supporting my hobby.

I have met and spoken with the Original Poster of this thread. But I recognized that his products did not respect my approach. I will not purchase his CAD drawings until I can be assured that he is coordinating with the originator or current owner of the designs.

Regardless of any laws, this remains my approach.
I wish this was universal.
~RN

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dnevil
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by dnevil » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:03 pm

Marty_Knox wrote:
I don't think Mike wants to sell you any drawings, since you will just knock them off, then sell them through your Plan Ahead Designs.
That's a pretty strong accusation, and has led to a lot of discussion in which it is assumed that RICHK is guilty of plagiarism. I think it might be wise to establish the facts before hanging the man. I quickly looked at the "Plan Ahead Website". I don't see anything that was copied from Little Engines. The site provides plans for a CP-173/Lillie Bell, but claims that the plans are "faithfully scaled and reproduced from original museum documents." Perhaps you can elaborate on what has been infringed.

Respectfully,
Daris
Daris Nevil
IBLS Secretary
North American Region
http://www.ibls.org

Harold_V
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by Harold_V » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:03 am

Thanks, Daris, for your level headed assessment of the situation.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

BClemens
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by BClemens » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:21 am

The plans "Baldwin 2-6-0" look very much like an Allen Locomotive Works "Fitchburg Northern" to me. But I could be wrong...Moguls are moguls...
BC

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Comstock-Friend
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by Comstock-Friend » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:55 pm

In 1976 I walked into Railroad Supply on Victory Blvd in Burbank and purchased from Chet the complete CP173 drawing set (nothing was said that I would have to purchase a complete casting set, in fact, Chet said I could purchase parts as needed and when funds permitted; I was a newly wed, right out of college). A month or two later I got the Section 1 frame group; the drawings said the frame was 0.500" wide, mine was 0.625" so I 'adjusted' the machining on the cab floor and the pilot beam. Next time in I inquired about that and Chet exclaimed that my frames had not been Blanchard ground. They gave me new frames and I brought in my partially machined frames for exchange. I have shims on the cab floor and pilot beam. I later purchased wheels, cylinders, steam chests, domes, trucks and some other parts. Some will be used, some will not.

About this time Bill Semerau (a past LALS President) inoculated me into the lore of the Virginia & Truckee RR. I was pleased to find (actually the RRSC historical documentation listed) that V&T #17 Columbus and V&T #18 Dayton were built to the same design of CP173. So now I'm not building a CP173, but V&T #18. And me being somewhat OCD, it's now being built in 1.59" instead of 1.5". My frame is somewhat extended, counterweights milled out of the drivers. Lead truck is now V&T design (I spent much time after hours at NSRM crawling under and about the Dayton with the Director's permission).

I frequently redraw the part in ACAD to dimension the prints to current standards (one can't build any Stewart products without a complete redraw!).

A new Tormach PCNC1100 machine is soon to appear in my garage and Fusion 360 is being examined for CAD/CAD. Now parts HAVE to be redrawn so they CAN be machined!

Someone will be debated if they contact me to say I cannot redraw the part in CAD so it can be machined; that the design cannot be modified (mostly corrected, the tender trucks are completely wrong). My friend Mike Collins (current president of the V&TRRHS) has shared his 30 plus year old sketches of the Dayton he made while it was undergoing restoration, and his ACAD drawings (some of which I have found a few errors in and re-shared with him).

It will be MY Dayton based on the RRSC CP173 and mine and others' research. I may need some parts from Mike McClure and the new RRSC in the future, these may be machined as designed or modified. I would expect him to sell to me, why not?

Am I wrong here???

John

jcbrock
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by jcbrock » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:27 pm

No John you are not wrong, that is all personal use and anything goes there. If you started making parts for other people or distributing the drawings to other people then the preceding discussion would come into play.
John Brock

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Marty_Knox
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by Marty_Knox » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:48 pm

dnevil wrote:Marty_Knox wrote:
I don't think Mike wants to sell you any drawings, since you will just knock them off, then sell them through your Plan Ahead Designs.
That's a pretty strong accusation, and has led to a lot of discussion in which it is assumed that RICHK is guilty of plagiarism. I think it might be wise to establish the facts before hanging the man. I quickly looked at the "Plan Ahead Website". I don't see anything that was copied from Little Engines. The site provides plans for a CP-173/Lillie Bell, but claims that the plans are "faithfully scaled and reproduced from original museum documents." Perhaps you can elaborate on what has been infringed.

Respectfully,
Daris
Daris, he used to advertise Wabash Mogul and Ten-Wheeler drawings that were copied from Allen drawings. When we owned Allen Models we met with our attorney - he felt we made a coherent case, but felt we would win a trial, but would not realize enough to cover his fees. His suggestion was to pursue it through social media.
His claim to have done original research is very flimsy - I can show you were he copied mistakes designers have made.
He no longer shows the Wabash (Allen) Mogul and Ten - Wheeler - I consider that a victory.

Pontiacguy1
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by Pontiacguy1 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:06 am

Several years ago, I started building a pair of Allen Americans. I purchased castings as I could afford them from Gene. I only purchased one copy of the plans. Gene was aware of what I was doing.
Am I going to have to buy another set of drawings so that I can have permission to build the second locomotive? Also, if I happen to need some more castings, would Steve sell them to me? I was thinking about some valve gear parts, maybe also upgrade to some of those new cast iron parts too. I purchased the most critical parts so that I would be able to finish the locomotives, even if I had to fab some items. I haven't worked on these in several years, but I absolutely intend to do this once the kids get up bigger, etc...
My intention was to build two locomotives and keep one then sell one. I would recoup my costs plus donate part of the sales to my church and to the local railroad club.
Now, I'm sure Steve is a real stand-up kind of guy, and I don't want to mess him, or anybody, over. So, what would be the proper thing here? Do I need to buy another set of drawings or no? I will if that's what I need to do.
I understand completely about protecting your intellectual property, which is why I ask the question.

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Builder01
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by Builder01 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:20 am

The right thing to do, is to always ask. Tell the owner what you are doing, and just ask what you would like to do and if it is okay.

David

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gwrdriver
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by gwrdriver » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:47 am

Scott,
Depends. Without permission from Steve, in order to do the "right" thing you'd need to buy a second set of drawings, and for the price you'd be asking for your duplicate engine the new owner would expect a set of drawings to go with it.

Here's a new question for this discussion, which for decades has been "nudge-nudge wink-wink" and has been badly needed, openly, for a long time . . . .

A few years ago country music icon Garth Brooks threw a bombshell into the then ongoing (and needed) campaign to curtail music piracy, made rampant by the advent of the Internet and digital media, and technology changing faster than laws and recording media could keep up with it. What Brooks said (in so many words) was this . . . "Not only are the original CDs my IP, but they remain my IP and I am entitled to a royalty on every subsequent sale for money no matter when or between whom a sale occurs." That declaration, so far as I know, fell on completely deaf ears and was never heard of, at least by the public, again, in no small part because, how and by whom would that be enforced??

So the question here is, where do aftermarket drawings sales play into all this?
Last edited by gwrdriver on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
GWRdriver
Nashville TN

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Marty_Knox
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by Marty_Knox » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:48 am

dnevil wrote:Marty_Knox wrote:
I don't think Mike wants to sell you any drawings, since you will just knock them off, then sell them through your Plan Ahead Designs.
I quickly looked at the "Plan Ahead Website". I don't see anything that was copied from Little Engines. The site provides plans for a CP-173/Lillie Bell, but claims that the plans are "faithfully scaled and reproduced from original museum documents." Perhaps you can elaborate on what has been infringed.

Respectfully,
Daris
The Baldwin C-16 0-4-0 is a copy of the Little Engines 1 1/2" scale 0-4-0. The CP 173 4-4-0 is a copy of the Disney/RRS 4-4-0.
The Bridgeton & Harrison 2-4-4T is a copy of Don Young's Lucky 7. The Tasha 2-4-0 is a copy of WATO Engineering's Lil Lima 2-4-0.
In each of these there are details that differ from the real locomotive that have been copied in his drawings.

trivettj
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Re: LITTLE ENGINES

Post by trivettj » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:08 pm

I would always buy a set of plans to go with the locomotive build but I have a question did anyone ever pay Baldwin or any of the other locomotive builders or designers for there drawings if they were originally copied to make a scale locomotive? I have just always been curious of this or does copying there work not count?

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