The first crash, and it will happen, will wipe out all the time saved.
Some tiny issue develops on machine No3, your mind become focused on the issue, machine No1 and No2 crash.
How many times I started a water hose into a container only to overflow it doing something else.
Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
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tornitore45
- Posts: 2077
- Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:24 am
- Location: USA Texas, Austin
Re: Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
Mauro Gaetano
in Austin TX
in Austin TX
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tornitore45
- Posts: 2077
- Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:24 am
- Location: USA Texas, Austin
Re: Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
I follow the same plan outlined by SteveM.Planning your operations will be time well invested.
A spreadsheet is great to calculate the dimension that are important to you when machining.
Sometimes the drawing dimensions can be either unimportant, unpractical, not useful, referenced from the wrong edge etc.
Sometimes a feature has dimensions that define an angle but the angle is not given. You need the angle to set the machine.
Parts that can "paint you in corner" and become impossible or difficult to hold after a few cuts require a planned sequence.
I visualize the part as cut are made and write down a procedure to remind which operation to do first.
Mauro Gaetano
in Austin TX
in Austin TX
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Trainman4602
- Posts: 3482
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:26 pm
- Location: New Jersey
Re: Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
ALLWAYS OPERATING MY TRAIN IN A SAFE MANNER USING AUTOMATIC AIR BRAKES
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Trainman4602
- Posts: 3482
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:26 pm
- Location: New Jersey
Re: Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
ALLWAYS OPERATING MY TRAIN IN A SAFE MANNER USING AUTOMATIC AIR BRAKES
Re: Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
Thanks for the Replies everyone! I'm overwhelmed with replies and doin't have enough time to answer it all.Trainman I'm glad to see you doing this! Seen your channel but didn't know about these 2. By the way everybody, I neglected to mention I do the lathe passes toward the tailstock, not toward the chuck so no crashes into the chuck! Wish I had bigger machines but that mill is the largest I'm able to lift all the individual parts for. I'm sure I'd need bigger machines for 1 1/2" scale but do I really need bigger for 3/4"? Maybe I can just make a plate to bolt to the back of the mill column and base and that will be rigid enough? RET what did you mean by good measuring equipment? Did you mean it better be a micrometer and not a caliper and it better go in the tool rack for fast access and not a wooded box in the drawer?
Re: Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
This one is a no-brainer.
If your only measuring instrument is a caliper, you can expect to have no end to problems making proper fits. A caliper, regardless of what you may believe, is not capable of making reliable measurements. If, for example, you hope to make a proper sliding fit, you will succeed only by luck. You can not work to a few tenths if your measurement isn't accurate, and they generally are not when achieved with a caliper.
Even an old, well worn micrometer will provide far more accurate measurements than a caliper. Doesn't matter if the caliper is electronic, dial or vernier. They simply can not achieve high precision, reliable measurements.
H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
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Trainman4602
- Posts: 3482
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:26 pm
- Location: New Jersey
Re: Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
Dial or electronic digital calipers are only good for check the work . Just a quick measurement.
ALLWAYS OPERATING MY TRAIN IN A SAFE MANNER USING AUTOMATIC AIR BRAKES
Re: Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
Hi shld,
To me, "good measuring equipment" is equipment that will give you an accurate measurement, but it isn't quite as simple as you might think. For some measurements, a scale is good enough, for other closer measurements a vernier might suffice, but if you are going to make a press fit, or a proper slide fit with no play you might need an accurate micrometer that can measure to tenths and an internal 3 anvil micrometer that can work to the same precision. I have and use all of these when I need them.
Good measuring tools are worth the money and will repay the outlay many times over but you need to look after them to preserve their accuracy. For some tools, it is well worth having the Standards so you can check the accuracy of your micrometers, etc. My larger micrometers (up to 16") stay in the wooden cases until I need them. Its only a 6" vernier (Steinmeyer) and a 1" micrometer (Starrett) that are always out on the shop floor. All the rest I keep in their protective cases until I need them.
The Starrett inside mikes I have cost me over two thousand dollars new in the 1980's and I haven't used them a lot (mainly for cylinder bores), but I still regard it as money well spent. Most of my measuring equipment is Starrett.
The point I'm trying to make is that you measure to the level of accuracy that is needed for what you are trying to do. When you get into tenths, temperature starts to become important and both the work and the measuring equipment need to be at the same temperature, so a garage in winter isn't the best location for a shop. Been there, done that. My shop is in the basement, so it is always pretty much the same temperature but like everyone else, you work with the best you can manage.
As always, I hope this helps a bit. Welcome to the journey.
Richard Trounce.
To me, "good measuring equipment" is equipment that will give you an accurate measurement, but it isn't quite as simple as you might think. For some measurements, a scale is good enough, for other closer measurements a vernier might suffice, but if you are going to make a press fit, or a proper slide fit with no play you might need an accurate micrometer that can measure to tenths and an internal 3 anvil micrometer that can work to the same precision. I have and use all of these when I need them.
Good measuring tools are worth the money and will repay the outlay many times over but you need to look after them to preserve their accuracy. For some tools, it is well worth having the Standards so you can check the accuracy of your micrometers, etc. My larger micrometers (up to 16") stay in the wooden cases until I need them. Its only a 6" vernier (Steinmeyer) and a 1" micrometer (Starrett) that are always out on the shop floor. All the rest I keep in their protective cases until I need them.
The Starrett inside mikes I have cost me over two thousand dollars new in the 1980's and I haven't used them a lot (mainly for cylinder bores), but I still regard it as money well spent. Most of my measuring equipment is Starrett.
The point I'm trying to make is that you measure to the level of accuracy that is needed for what you are trying to do. When you get into tenths, temperature starts to become important and both the work and the measuring equipment need to be at the same temperature, so a garage in winter isn't the best location for a shop. Been there, done that. My shop is in the basement, so it is always pretty much the same temperature but like everyone else, you work with the best you can manage.
As always, I hope this helps a bit. Welcome to the journey.
Richard Trounce.
Re: Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
Juggling between machines I do it on occasion but not often. It was attractive at first but what I found was if I put too much emphasis on running two machine, I one didn’t pay enough attention to what I was doing on one of them. Once in a while the situation lends itself to running two machine but not often.
While the original post was about being faster, I’ll comment that larger heavier machines and big compliments of tools are nice and make the work go faster but they are not an imperative. There have been a lot of locomotive accurately built on “light” machines by people with a limited set of tools. It is not as convenient for sure but with a bit of extra effort it is entirely do able.
While the original post was about being faster, I’ll comment that larger heavier machines and big compliments of tools are nice and make the work go faster but they are not an imperative. There have been a lot of locomotive accurately built on “light” machines by people with a limited set of tools. It is not as convenient for sure but with a bit of extra effort it is entirely do able.
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steamin10
- Posts: 6712
- Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:52 pm
- Location: NW Indiana. Close to Lake Michigan S. tip
Re: Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
I cannot stress enough the value of a skilled operator that CAN read a measuring instrument.
When I worked for Blaw Knox, I had the opportunity to transfer into the roll shop. I had already had experience on manual Mesta machine grinders and Waterberry Ferrel roll grinders, and the new mylar tape sequenced grinders with auto micrometers. (really something to see when they worked) At any rate the job was to replace for the summer the old guys with extended vacations on manual roll cutting lathes. It was a set-up from the word go. They wanted somebodies relative to have the job and their mission was to bomb any body else that tried. I was trying to escape the crane in the scrap yard, where I and a partner had the record for the most unloaded railroad cars in one shift. There is a whole lot of background story to this, but suffice it to say I felt abused as a skilled operator, that got shoved into all the bad jobs because I survived without destroying equipment. ( Considered an Ace). It was why at the last of the company operations, I spent all summer sleeping in the machine shop cranes that made but perhaps 2 lifts all night of 100 or more tons on milling machine and boring machines that were moved and bolted to the floor layout plates to do the work, of machining bearing holes in very large castings. At any rate, with the Union rep, and the shop super, i was given a 60 inch micrometer and told to measure two spots marked on a roll being cut to size. This of course is basic as all rolls are rough cast, rough machined, and then heat treated for surface hardness and then finish ground to size for delivery. The current operator took his measurement, and then handed me the Mic. He disagreed with my measure. I tried again. He was .250 off and I discovered it was set up that he was to try and convince me I was wrong in my reading. First they had me set the point, and read the standard, so we were in the 58 inch range, and then read the work. At the end of the ordeal, I felt very abused, and as I walked away the union rep was smiling, but said nothing. My inquiry into the situation eventually revealed because of a drop in sales, they cancelled the position,, ( I was right and the wrong guy qualified -me-) and they later moved all the rolls work to another plant in Ohio. Thus nobody got the job. The former Continental foundry, that became Blaw Knox Mill Machine and Foundry, was the largest capacity machine shop and foundry in the US. It sported a 30 fot rotary table mill that could turn blast furnace entry bells. They built a Crusher for Sun oil company for oil shale that became a cancelled project, and sat in the parking lot for two years before being cut up. It was a white elephant when built, and never completed. We built the last of the M-60 tanks for Taiwan, and the first armor rings for the M1 Abrams. I loaded the first test plates shot through from the firing range. Amazing stuff, to see 4 feet of steel blocks nailed together with a shard of steel driven all the way one to another. I cannot talk about the Craftsman tools loaded into gondolas that went into the furnace, or the local police that loaded tons of guns into the charging pans, and fed to the fires. Makes me ill.
The roll set up, was crude, with a tool stand bolted to the base, and cutting tools moved in with a wrench to peel the surface of the casting into chips. And after about an inch of stock reduction the base and tool holder was moved over to start another bite until the entire surface of the roll was stripped. A course grinding to standard size led to a crack check with spray goop, and nearly all rolls moved on from there. any cracking made for a scrap roll returned to the yard to be cut up and remade in the pit. All rolls were cast in coffins of sand with chills buried in them. and poured from the bottom up. The runner entering the bottom would circulate the Molten metal into a swirl filling the on-end cavity until the casting head was full. As it cooled and solidified the head that was slightly larger than the roll fed hot metal into the shrinking mass into the center allowing sand, grit and slag to rise to the end from natural forces keeping the casting clean and full. Most cracking flaws were caused by inept furnace handling during heat treatment letting heat cycles fall out of range. Everything was bottom poured from 100ton ladles into floor pits, no lip or top pours.
When I worked for Blaw Knox, I had the opportunity to transfer into the roll shop. I had already had experience on manual Mesta machine grinders and Waterberry Ferrel roll grinders, and the new mylar tape sequenced grinders with auto micrometers. (really something to see when they worked) At any rate the job was to replace for the summer the old guys with extended vacations on manual roll cutting lathes. It was a set-up from the word go. They wanted somebodies relative to have the job and their mission was to bomb any body else that tried. I was trying to escape the crane in the scrap yard, where I and a partner had the record for the most unloaded railroad cars in one shift. There is a whole lot of background story to this, but suffice it to say I felt abused as a skilled operator, that got shoved into all the bad jobs because I survived without destroying equipment. ( Considered an Ace). It was why at the last of the company operations, I spent all summer sleeping in the machine shop cranes that made but perhaps 2 lifts all night of 100 or more tons on milling machine and boring machines that were moved and bolted to the floor layout plates to do the work, of machining bearing holes in very large castings. At any rate, with the Union rep, and the shop super, i was given a 60 inch micrometer and told to measure two spots marked on a roll being cut to size. This of course is basic as all rolls are rough cast, rough machined, and then heat treated for surface hardness and then finish ground to size for delivery. The current operator took his measurement, and then handed me the Mic. He disagreed with my measure. I tried again. He was .250 off and I discovered it was set up that he was to try and convince me I was wrong in my reading. First they had me set the point, and read the standard, so we were in the 58 inch range, and then read the work. At the end of the ordeal, I felt very abused, and as I walked away the union rep was smiling, but said nothing. My inquiry into the situation eventually revealed because of a drop in sales, they cancelled the position,, ( I was right and the wrong guy qualified -me-) and they later moved all the rolls work to another plant in Ohio. Thus nobody got the job. The former Continental foundry, that became Blaw Knox Mill Machine and Foundry, was the largest capacity machine shop and foundry in the US. It sported a 30 fot rotary table mill that could turn blast furnace entry bells. They built a Crusher for Sun oil company for oil shale that became a cancelled project, and sat in the parking lot for two years before being cut up. It was a white elephant when built, and never completed. We built the last of the M-60 tanks for Taiwan, and the first armor rings for the M1 Abrams. I loaded the first test plates shot through from the firing range. Amazing stuff, to see 4 feet of steel blocks nailed together with a shard of steel driven all the way one to another. I cannot talk about the Craftsman tools loaded into gondolas that went into the furnace, or the local police that loaded tons of guns into the charging pans, and fed to the fires. Makes me ill.
The roll set up, was crude, with a tool stand bolted to the base, and cutting tools moved in with a wrench to peel the surface of the casting into chips. And after about an inch of stock reduction the base and tool holder was moved over to start another bite until the entire surface of the roll was stripped. A course grinding to standard size led to a crack check with spray goop, and nearly all rolls moved on from there. any cracking made for a scrap roll returned to the yard to be cut up and remade in the pit. All rolls were cast in coffins of sand with chills buried in them. and poured from the bottom up. The runner entering the bottom would circulate the Molten metal into a swirl filling the on-end cavity until the casting head was full. As it cooled and solidified the head that was slightly larger than the roll fed hot metal into the shrinking mass into the center allowing sand, grit and slag to rise to the end from natural forces keeping the casting clean and full. Most cracking flaws were caused by inept furnace handling during heat treatment letting heat cycles fall out of range. Everything was bottom poured from 100ton ladles into floor pits, no lip or top pours.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
Re: Anyone else like to juggle between machines?
Hi shld,
Two things.
First, you say that the little mill you have is the biggest that you can lift the individual parts for so that is your size criterion. Don't let that limit your thinking. The Bridgeport I have ($2,800.00 at auction) came in the side door of the house in pieces and I assembled it myself with a cable hoist for lifting the knee, head etc. Once you get things down on a concrete basement floor, its easy to move them around with a few pipe rollers. In your pictures, I see the joists are exposed so you can do the same thing I did, drill two holes in the joists, put a 3/4" or 1" bar through and use that to mount a cable hoist for lifting. With that plus pry bars etc. its amazing what you can do on your own if you think it through. Again, plan your work so its safe. The last thing you want is to have something land on you, especially if you happen to be working alone.
Second, measuring accurately over longer distances can be a challenge. I have a two foot Starrett vernier caliper which Don & I have used to measure axle spacing on several locomotive chassis, both his and mine, but if I needed to make an accurate measurement over that kind of distance, I would probably mount a dial indicator in the mill spindle and use the x axis readout for the measurement. In spite of all the other measuring equipment I have, the readout is still my most accurate measuring tool. If you think about it for a bit, you can probably figure out how to do it (use the dial indicator to come back to the same reading). I don't lay out any holes, I use the mill instead. With it I get much more accurate hole location and besides, its easier.
Bigger machines can remove more metal faster, but because of their heavy cast iron construction, they are intrinsically more accurate. Remember, you design machine tools to minmize deflection. not for strength and a heavier machine will deflect less when it is taking a cut. If you were only designing for strength, the machine would be a LOT lighter.
I hope this is helpful for you and that you enjoy what you do. In the final analysis, that is more satisfying, at least it is to me.
Richard Trounce.
Two things.
First, you say that the little mill you have is the biggest that you can lift the individual parts for so that is your size criterion. Don't let that limit your thinking. The Bridgeport I have ($2,800.00 at auction) came in the side door of the house in pieces and I assembled it myself with a cable hoist for lifting the knee, head etc. Once you get things down on a concrete basement floor, its easy to move them around with a few pipe rollers. In your pictures, I see the joists are exposed so you can do the same thing I did, drill two holes in the joists, put a 3/4" or 1" bar through and use that to mount a cable hoist for lifting. With that plus pry bars etc. its amazing what you can do on your own if you think it through. Again, plan your work so its safe. The last thing you want is to have something land on you, especially if you happen to be working alone.
Second, measuring accurately over longer distances can be a challenge. I have a two foot Starrett vernier caliper which Don & I have used to measure axle spacing on several locomotive chassis, both his and mine, but if I needed to make an accurate measurement over that kind of distance, I would probably mount a dial indicator in the mill spindle and use the x axis readout for the measurement. In spite of all the other measuring equipment I have, the readout is still my most accurate measuring tool. If you think about it for a bit, you can probably figure out how to do it (use the dial indicator to come back to the same reading). I don't lay out any holes, I use the mill instead. With it I get much more accurate hole location and besides, its easier.
Bigger machines can remove more metal faster, but because of their heavy cast iron construction, they are intrinsically more accurate. Remember, you design machine tools to minmize deflection. not for strength and a heavier machine will deflect less when it is taking a cut. If you were only designing for strength, the machine would be a LOT lighter.
I hope this is helpful for you and that you enjoy what you do. In the final analysis, that is more satisfying, at least it is to me.
Richard Trounce.