Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

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CapnMatter
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:18 pm
Location: Southwest Missouri, USA

Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by CapnMatter »

I've been researching for the last five years on building live steam locomotives, and I think I've gotten to the point where I can build one. The only tool I lack access to, however, is a metal lathe/milling machine. Something I do have access to is a 3D printer. I think I can get around the metal lathe by casting 3D prints (and using a drill press for smoothing/other parts). I found all brass regulators and safety valves(100psi, the pressure I am going to use for my locomotive) on Amazon, so I don't have to make those.

I'm still drawing everything out(and I have to get the rest of my casting equipment), but I think I can start printing the wheels (I already have the drivers partially designed) somewhat soon.
Finally have a lathe and mill, time to decide what to build.
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Fred_V
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Re: Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by Fred_V »

There are a thousand parts on the engine that require precision machining. I don't see any way you could possibly build an operating loco without a lathe and a mill. the last 5 years should have been spent saving every penny you could in a machine fund and you would have both machines now.

The castings, no matter how they are made, have to be machined for proper fit of moving parts. On the chassis the location and fit of the axle boxes and side rods have to be exactly precise or they will bind up when rotating. Cylinder walls HAVE to have a smooth round machined surface.

It takes an experienced builder about 1000 to 2000 hours, depending on the size engine, to build one of these and 75% of that time is spent on the lathe and mill.

Start saving your money and go ahead and make your castings and DON"T use aluminum.
Fred V
Fred V
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Builder01
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Location: Erie, PA

Re: Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by Builder01 »

The lathe and milling machine are the most fundamental tools in the machine shop. Here's a link to my website showing the page with photos of some of my tools. The lathe and mill are shown first, for good reason, the rest of the shop and tooling is built around these two machines. I purchased these two machine tools soon after graduating high school. The rest has taken years to collect.

https://supersimplex.yolasite.com/Tools-Required.php

Save up for a lathe that will do the job, don't get a toy. The tools you see here were just enough to build a 1" scale steam locomotive. I would need slightly larger tools, and shop, for a 1-1/2" scale locomotive.

David
CapnMatter
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:18 pm
Location: Southwest Missouri, USA

Re: Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by CapnMatter »

The only parts I plan on casting(so far) are the wheels. The cylinders will be drilled through on a drill press. I really think it is possible, the only part I can think of that i might not be able to get away without these tools is the water injector, and I don't think they are mass produced small enough for 1:12. If you guys think I am missing any parts that absolutely need to be machined, tell me.
Finally have a lathe and mill, time to decide what to build.
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Builder01
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Location: Erie, PA

Re: Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by Builder01 »

Wheel castings must be machined on a lathe. The cylinders must be bored to size, not drilled. This can be done on a mill or lathe. The pistons as well, must be machined to size on a lathe. Water injectors are readily available from many suppliers from England at very reasonable prices in the scale you need. I list several suppliers on my website (mentioned in my previous post) as well as photos of the injector installed on my locomotive. It is a 1:12 scale locomotive as you are thinking about. I am surprised that during your 5 years of "research", you did not find any.

David
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NP317
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Re: Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by NP317 »

Here are some suppliers' websites that you should know about:

https://allenmodels.com
http://www.americanmodeleng.com
https://www.eccentricengineer.com
http://ls.villagepress.com/home
http://www.littleengines.com
http://livesteamsupplies.com/index.html
https://livesteamwarehouse.com
http://www.locoparts.biz
https://www.pmmodelengines.com

There are more.

Your most valuable resource will be a Live Steam club you can join, attend, and absorb knowledge from. Maybe even get a member's help with machining those items that MUST be precision machined, like cylinders and pistons. Drill-press "machined" cylinders and pistons will only be capable of dealing with steam pressures below about 20 psi. Too much blow buy, otherwise. Close tolerances are a requirement. As are truly round wheels concentrically mounted on axles.

If you post your location by your name on this discussion board, we can provide you with more local resources.
Don't be discouraged by the responses here. Follow the excellent advice from this Group, and enjoy the success you seek.
Regards,
~RN
Marty_Knox
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Re: Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by Marty_Knox »

I built my first two locomotives before I owned a lathe. I built my first, a Little Engines 4-4-0, while in college. I was an Industrial Education major specializing in Metalworking. I was able to use the machines in the machine shop.
My second locomotive, an Allen Ten-Wheeler, I paid a friend to machine the wheels and cylinders. Someone said that with what I paid my friend I could have bought a lathe. My response was, I didn't WANT a lathe - I wanted a locomotive!
CapnMatter
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:18 pm
Location: Southwest Missouri, USA

Re: Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by CapnMatter »

I didn't really start looking for injectors until recently(a few months ago, when I decided I'd do 1:12). Thanks for the sources! What would I need to do to bore the cylinders out? I just remembered, I have family that I can ship parts(8 hour+ drive away) to that I can give the measurements that they'd need to be machined to.
Finally have a lathe and mill, time to decide what to build.
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Builder01
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Location: Erie, PA

Re: Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by Builder01 »

Cylinders can be bored on a mill or a lathe, as I mentioned in my earlier post. I clamped my cylinder casting to the saddle of my lathe and used the lathe like a horizontal boring mill. The boring bar was turned between centers.
DSCN0790 - reduced.jpg
If you want to see the rest of the photos, go to https://supersimplex.yolasite.com/Cylin ... -Chest.php
Scroll down the page and you will see almost all of the machine operations involved in completing the cylinders and steam chest for a 1:12 scale steam locomotive.
rkcarguy
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Re: Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by rkcarguy »

I have had *limited* success drilling bores with a nice enough finish to suffice as a piston bore, what I ended up doing was carefully sharpening a radius into the corners(we're talking get the dykem out and use a diamond wheel) of a drill bit, and using it as a ream drill, to cut out the last ~.015". The problem is, this worked great in aluminum and steel but not cast iron, as ANY grit or inclusion will wipe out the carefully radiused corner. Also, if the casting has a hole cast into it and/or the face of the casting is not flat, the drill bit will follow that and it will not be straight or round. I have always bored cast iron parts of any importance. Save your $$$ and have a machine shop bore the cylinders if you must.
SteveM
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Re: Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by SteveM »

You can build a locomotive without a mill, because you can use a lathe as a mill (not optimal, but usable), but I don't see you being able to do it without a lathe.

For example, you will need to turn the outside profile of your wheels and then IN THE SAME SETUP, spot, drill and bore (not ream - don't ask me how I know) the center holes to within a few ten-thousanths of an inch (for the press fit on the axles). Doing it all in the same setup ensures that the bore of the wheel is concentric with the tread. I don't see any way you are going to be able to do that on a drill.

Don't even think of using a drill press for a mill - the spindle is not meant for side loading, and you will ruin the drill press AND the part you are working on.

If you want to get an idea of what you can do with minimal machines, get a copy of any of LBSC's locomotive building books (Tich is a good read). He does a good job of telling you how to do stuff on a budget. He built about 50 locomotives, so he knows a bit about it.

Considering that you can buy a lathe for as little as a few hundred dollars, I don't see why you would want to do without. I bought a pair of South Bend lathes for $450 and a Sherline for $125. I'm brokering a deal for a friend right now for an 11" south bend with a quick-change gearbox for about $500.

Steve
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Harlock
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Re: Hello, I am new here and am trying to build an Atlantic without a metal lathe.

Post by Harlock »

A lot of early builders from the 1920s to 1960s built locomotives with nothing more than a lathe and a drill press, but as others mentioned the lathe is kind of essential. It would be quite a challenge to complete any kind of regular rod locomotive without a lathe. I think if you were to do certain key parts on someone else's equipment, you could do a lot of the secondary parts with hand fabrication, although get ready for an inordinate amount of sawing, filing and sanding. It will increase the man hours put in drastically. If you have no money but a lot of time, that would be the situation in which to pursue a minimal shop direction. Consider seeking out help locally from a hobbyist who is willing to share his shop and his time with you to help things along.
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