Mogul Kit Differences

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Mr_Blonde
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Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Mr_Blonde » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:05 pm

Hello Live Steam Group!

I am starting my journey of building a live steam locomotive! I want to build a mogul, which is nice since there are multiple kits available, making this build easier than what I initially intended to build, a K-36 (second project). The mogul I want to build is a Southern Pacific engine 1629, built by Schenectady locomotive works.

My question to the group is, if I am to build this as a kit, which one do I pick. I do not know how different locomotive companies built moguls, so the variation is unknown to me. I know Allen models based theirs off of Wabash, which is a Rhode Island locomotive, and Railroad Supply does a Baldwin variant. I did not find information on what Little Engines based theirs off of. Is there a company that based their model off of an ALCO mogul? That would be the closest in my mind to my locomotive. I am working on getting information from CSRRM and I plan to write the Schecenectady Historical Society for more information. Luckily the Santa Clarita Historical Society (where the locomotive is stored) sent me some basic information.

This also may be a case of overthinking this initial problem, and the variance between kits is marginal so it really doesn't matter.

So the bottom line is, which Mogul kit would closely model an ALCO mogul?

I look forward to this new journey I am taking!

Thank you in advance,

Kyle

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Fender
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Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Fender » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:19 pm

It would help to know the general specs on the prototype (full-size) loco you wish to model. For instance, the driver diameter, cylinder bore & stroke, boiler diameter, overall length, and valve gear type (piston vs. slide valves and Stephenson vs. Walschearts). Alco, Baldwin and the other loco builders made many different sizes of locomotives, so the specs above are going to be more important in deciding whether Little Engines, Allen or another suppier's offering will be closest to you needs.
Dan Watson

Mr_Blonde
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Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Mr_Blonde » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:17 am

Hi Fender,
Full size specs are as follows:
Driver diameter is 63"
Cylinder bore and stroke is 20"x28"
Locomotive length is 34.75' from cupoler to cab
I believe the boiler is 62" in diameter on the step down portion of the boiler
Tender length is 29' from cupoler to front. It is a Vanderbilt tender.
The valve gear is Stephenson with piston valves
1629 was an M-4 class Mogul.

Kyle

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Bill Shields
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Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Bill Shields » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:39 am

Kyle:

I hope you fully understand what you are understanding as a 'kit'....

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Fender
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Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Fender » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:04 am

I’m guessing that the Allen mogul is closer. The drivers are the same diameter (8” = 64” full size) and it has Stephenson valve gear. However, the Allen cylinders use slide valves r/t piston valves. But you should buy a set of drawings to compare dimensions
Dan Watson

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Fender
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Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Fender » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:53 pm

Most likely, you can only strive for a “representation” of the SP mogul, not an exact model. Use the castings and drawings from the supplier for the basic build, but modify the cab, pilot and other details to get closer to the engine you want to represent. Otherwise, you will need to design from scratch, a much more challenging task.
Dan Watson

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wbarbe
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Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by wbarbe » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:42 pm

Speaking of kits, does anyone actually make a machined kit anymore?

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Bill Shields
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Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Bill Shields » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:06 pm

there are a few out there...OS Engines in Japan has a Baldwin MOGUL in that scale that is really bolt together and ready to run.

http://oslivesteam.com/

They are 2.25 million yen...which is ~ $20,000 + shipping and tax -> which may sound like a lot until you actually try to BUILD a steamer of that size.

At which time you will find out exactly how REASONABLE it really is.

The only one that I have actually seen run belongs to Fr. Jay (it has been a few years), but like most OS Kits, runs well.

One of the fellows that frequents PLS has one of their Shays, which also runs well.

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johnpenn74
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Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by johnpenn74 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:05 pm

Well I think that any project where you have any existing prototype is a great one to do. When in doubt, go look at the prototype!...

Many of the Little Engines models are Southern Pacific prototypes. You might find the LE mogul is close to your prototype. The drivers I know is wrong, to small I think.

I would suggest you purchase the drawings to the Allen Models mogul and LE Mogul as a start. Always a good reference. As you start looking at the prototype more, you will find that many simplification have been made to the models that may or may not be a good idea. You can choose whether to include the changes or go back to the protoype.

The second item it ask is how true you want you model to be. For example, my Allen Ten Wheeler #112 is a good looking engine, but from a scale stand point its not close. The real engine (at CSRRM) is MUCH bigger. But the engine looks good and gives the right feel even if it is not an exact scale prototype.

I also remember seeing a 7.5 Live steam model in the Sacramento RR Museum. It might be your engine.

JP
Attachments
2470271454_95f780ebea_b.jpg
Mogul_jessicaboyer012916_01.jpg
ls 460 112.JPG
6176809788_21ccc9aa3e_z.jpg
John Pennington

Project
2 Mich-Cal Shays
Allen 4-4-0 Narrow Gauge Conversion
Reading A5a Camelback 0-4-0
USRA 0-6-0
Clishay
4 Western Wheeled Scraper NG Dump Cars
N&W 4-8-2
ICM 2-10-2
4 Modern Stake Cars
L&N Caboose
4 Big Four Conversion Gondolas

Like I'm actually gonna build all this stuff :-P

Mr_Blonde
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Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Mr_Blonde » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:26 pm

Thank you everyone who has commented so far! :D

Bill,
I understand that a kit usually entails cast parts that requires machining. I am also aware that I need to assemble the machines parts. I am not sure what you mean by understanding of what a kit is. Thanks for mentioning OS, I did not know they made a 7.5" Mogul. Do you know of other vendors/ I know Railroad Supply has one.

Fender,
I appreciate your clarification on the level of accuracy. My intent of using a kit is to have it get me at least 50% of the way there, and whatever doesn't match I will make. The current mindset for this project is not to burden myself reinventing something that has already been done. I am sure there will be a time for that later on down the road. I want to get it as close as I can, or I guess whatever patience I have at that point.

JP,
I appreciate the encouragement! That locomotive has been in my home town longer than I have been alive. I would drive by that and always get pumped seeing it sitting in the yard. It has sentimental value to me! I also think the Historical Society might let me climb around and take some pictures and measurements. They seemed intrigued about the project and asked for me to take build pictures for them.

I have been in contact with Mike V. about getting information about the LE mogul. He has been very helpful. If the drivers are too small, would it be possible to put larger ones in? Or would there be interference issues? I could foresee having to make new rods if things don't line up.

That is a beautiful 10 wheeler you have! Thanks for sharing that! I agree that it is a good representation of the full scale locomotive.

The engine you are referring at CSRRM to is very close, it is engine 1828. I plan to make it up there and take some photos. If anybody has information on that locomotive and how it was built I would be most appreciative.

Kyle
Attachments
IMG_0652.jpg
Some photos of 1828
IMG_0656.jpg

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Bill Shields
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Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Bill Shields » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:33 pm

smaller drivers are often easier than larger drivers -> which may require changes to the chassis etc:

Many of the 'kits' available are not very specific to a particular, specific loco...hence my thoughts.

A few people like Roger Goldmann (spelling) sell castings specifically for particular locos (mostly UP but a few others)

http://modelsteamengines.tripod.com/

Otherwise you are often required to 'kit bash' from what is available to make what you like.

good luck...

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kenrinc
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Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by kenrinc » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:27 am

Kyle,

You don't mention what previous experience you have in fabrication, machining, and/or building locomotives. I'm familiar with the prototype engine and there are no "kits" available that accurately represent it. Depending on your level of accuracy, an Allen mogul may or may not be able to accurately represent it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with "kitbashing" but just make sure you understand ahead of time that there may be a huge amount of modifications and re-engineering involved to accurately represent what you want to model (piston valves/stephenson, vandy tender etc..). For instance the tender would definitely be built from scratch. The suggestion of purchasing the plans for the kits that are available is a good one. This let's you see what your getting into.

If you are not involved with a Live Steam club I would highly recommend you get involved and ask copious questions of knowledgeable people.

The SP mogul in the CSRRM was built by Andy Clerici. And as a perfect example of what I mention above, it was entirely fabricated from scratch. The frame was cut from 5/8" thick steel sheet. The drivers were literally flame cut drops from 7/8" sheet steel with the spokes cutout on a bandsaw. :shock: Cylinders were fabricated from 1/4" sheet and 2" heavy pipe welded together as an assembly. I think the only non fabricated items were things that were in the cab like water glass etc...

Ken-

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