Mogul Kit Differences

This forum is dedicated to the Live Steam Hobbyist Community.

Moderators: cbrew, Harold_V

User avatar
Fender
Posts: 3084
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 8:33 pm
Location: Chattanooga TN

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Fender »

Boilers are generally supplied by other companies such as Ridge Boiler. It will probably be less expensive to buy a boiler for a “stock” design such as L.E. or Allen, than for a custom boiler design.
Dan Watson
Chattanooga, TN
User avatar
Dick_Morris
Posts: 2841
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:09 pm
Location: Anchorage, AK

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Dick_Morris »

The is a photo of my cast crosshead at -http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/vie ... ad#p386721

Life has got in the way and my project has been slow going. I still need to do some fine tuning to the pattern and core box and cast the final parts. It is somewhat difficult part to cast because of the core, but I did it that way because I liked the challenge. If I didn't enjoy pattern making and casting I would have fabricated it.

I looked as all the cylinder block castings I could find information on but none were very close to my needs, so I fabricated mine. It's shown in the same thread.
User avatar
Donhost4449
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:05 pm
Location: Vacaville, CA

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Donhost4449 »

Kyle-

SP #1829 in the video is mine, and is indeed a LE mogul. This photo might be of interest to you, as Robert brought his Railroad Supply mogul to Sacramento a few years ago, and we were able to double head. Gives a comparison of the two. I That was a fun day, and I hope to do it again! As for my LE mogul: it has been a great locomotive for my family and I. It can hold it's own in capability to move a decent load, and makes a decent representation of an SP mogul (from a distance).

Chris Donhost
Vacaville, CA
iPhoneImages 037.JPG
iPhoneImages 029-1.jpg
iPhoneImages 007 (2).JPG
Building a Fitchburg Northern (build log): www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=107249

My YouTube Videos: www.youtube.com/user/donhost4449/videos
User avatar
Donhost4449
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:05 pm
Location: Vacaville, CA

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Donhost4449 »

One other point of interest- #1828 that was built by Andi Clereci was last owned by Sellar Nugent. Sellar lived in the Dunsmuir area, and frequently visited Sacramento Valley Live Steamers in the late 80's. He stopped coming around as Train Mountain took off, as he became heavily invested in that railroad. Sellar was an engineer for SP, and retired from UP. At some point Sellar had a falling out with TM, and sometime thereafter CSRM made him an offer he couldn't refuse. That is how #1828 became stuffed and mounted.
iPhoneImages 250.JPG
Better days: Sellar operating #1828 at Train Mountain in the early 90's
SNp082-1.jpg
p70_Page_74.jpg
As a parting shot - one of my favorite pictures of a mogul doing what she was built to do, moving a reefer block on Espee's Monterey Branch.
Surf-turn[1].gif
Chris Donhost
Vacaville, CA
Building a Fitchburg Northern (build log): www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=107249

My YouTube Videos: www.youtube.com/user/donhost4449/videos
Mr_Blonde
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 10:37 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Mr_Blonde »

Those are some great photos Chris. Thank you for posting those. Do you know who owns 1825? I noticed the cylinders are angled, compared to a LE where the spool valves are vertical. Was 1825 a modified kit or was that done from scratch as well? It's great getting more SP pictures to reference.

Kyle
User avatar
Fender
Posts: 3084
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 8:33 pm
Location: Chattanooga TN

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Fender »

The reason for the cylinders being angled inwards is that this engine was built with inside valve gear (Stephenson). Because the mechanism driving the valve rod was between the frames, the piston valve was placed closer to the CL of the loco. Had this same engine been designed to use outside valve gear such as Walschearts, the piston valve would have been in the more “conventional” position.
It looks like this may have been built with slide valves and converted to piston valves later when the loco was superheated. Orher engines were built with inside gear and piston valves. This configuration seems to have been built only for a short period in the early 1900s, which is probably why live steam suppliers don’t offer such cylinders. After superheating and piston valves became the norm, most locomotives were built with ouside valve gear, which is much easier to maintain.
Dan Watson
Chattanooga, TN
User avatar
Fender
Posts: 3084
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 8:33 pm
Location: Chattanooga TN

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Fender »

I looked up this class M-4 on steamlocomotive.com and apparently they were built in 1899 with slide valves. Later, many were upgraded with superheat and piston valves. Such coversions were usually done by bolting a piston valve onto the cylinder in place of the slide valve, and this is probably what the SP or one of its subsidiaries did.
Dan Watson
Chattanooga, TN
User avatar
Dick_Morris
Posts: 2841
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:09 pm
Location: Anchorage, AK

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Dick_Morris »

There is a chance that CSRM may have drawings for the conversion so piston valves. Their collection includes many SP drawings.
User avatar
Donhost4449
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:05 pm
Location: Vacaville, CA

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Donhost4449 »

Kyle-

I believe the owner's first name is Robert, I don't know his last. I believe he frequents the Sagebrush Shortline in California. He told me that it is a Railroad Supply mogul, but I didn't inquire as to modifications that were made from the original plans/design.

Chris
Building a Fitchburg Northern (build log): www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=107249

My YouTube Videos: www.youtube.com/user/donhost4449/videos
Mr_Blonde
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 10:37 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Mr_Blonde »

Fender,

I am not very familiar with steamlocomotive.com. Where did you find that conversion? I have not been able to find that. I am able to confirm that it originally had American-Allen type valves. I assume those are slide valves, correct?

Dick,

I will contact CSRRM to see if they have that conversion drawing. I am getting some technical information from them as well as pictures of 1629. I can hardly wait!

Does anyone have any additional contacts I should reach out to for technical information? I have reached out to the following:

ALCO Historic Photo Society
Southern Pacific Technical and Historic Society
CSRRM
Gene Autry Museum

Groups to reach out to:
LA Historic Railroad Society (same group as LA railroad heritage foundation?)
Huntington library
ALCO Historical and Technical Society

-Kyle
User avatar
Fender
Posts: 3084
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 8:33 pm
Location: Chattanooga TN

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Fender »

Mr_Blonde wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:42 am Fender,

I am not very familiar with steamlocomotive.com. Where did you find that conversion? I have not been able to find that. I am able to confirm that it originally had American-Allen type valves. I assume those are slide valves, correct?
Yes, all the Allen locos use slide valves. When full-size railroads superheated an older locomotive, it was necessary to change them to use piston valves because they could withstand the higher steam temperatures. There were suppliers who provided a “bolt on” piston valve for this purpose.

Go to web site www.steamlocomotive.com

Then select wheel types > 6 drivers > 2-6-0 Mogul.

Then scroll down to SP (Arizona & New Mexico etc) and select that RR.

This will give a list of mogul classes for SP and associated railroads.

Scroll down to Class M-4 and here is what it says:

“Class M-4 (Locobase 9503) Submit a comment about this locomotive class

Data from "Southern Pacific Schenectady Mogul," Railway and Locomotive Engineering, April 1899, page 153, 172; "Cooke Mogul for Southern Pacific", May 1899, 216
Cooke supplied the lion's share of this large class of Moguls with Schenectady making up the balance. Road numbers for Cooke engines were 1619-1628, 1632-1672, 1678-1707. Schenectady road numbers were 1615-1618, 1629-1631, 1673-1674, and 1708-1719.

Class M-4 - superheated (Locobase 7281) Submit a comment about this locomotive class

Data from T&NO 3 -1932 Locomotive Diagrams supplied in May 2005 by Allen Stanley from his extensive Rail Data Exchange.
Delivered to several SP family subsidiaries in 1899 (Locobase 8717), these Moguls were clearly satisfactory.

In the 1920s, the T & NO's own shops updated the class with a modest amount of superheater. They weren't especially light on the rails, but their adhesion and tractive power put these 2-6-0s on the line right to the end of steam.“
Dan Watson
Chattanooga, TN
Mr_Blonde
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 10:37 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Mogul Kit Differences

Post by Mr_Blonde »

Who or what museum has the Allen Stanley collection? Does anyone know how to determine what the Vanderbuilt tender class for this locomotive might be?

-Kyle
Post Reply