Choice of prototype

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EVGEN
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by EVGEN »

Are there still steam locomotives in Belarus?
Locomotives? Of course! One even lives next door to me! Our locomotives http://history.rw.by/ Unfortunately, nothing interesting. Soviet locomotives and captured German.
Plenty of 10.25" gauge in the UK, so it could be sold on there eventually.
:wink: To reduce the cost of assembly, I would have built two locomotives - one for myself, the other for sale.
consider what it will weigh and how you will move it during and after construction
This is not a problem.
My choice, given my location, would be an A4.
Cool model! Small. Elegant. You can make it more detailed than on video. But a similar model already exists. And this confuses me. But definitely this locomotive is worthy of embodying it.
As I said to you before, my preference would be an American articulated because especially in a large size, such a locomotive would be VERY impressive. My own preference would be for a Big Boy or a Challenger because I think they look "cleaner" with less stuff hanging all over the locomotive, but that's just my opinion. While UP locomotives were built for speed (designed for a top speed of 90 miles/hr.) and Norfolk & Westerns were built for power (top speed of 50 to 60 mph), as large size models in the gauge you are contemplating, either one would have more speed than you would ever be able to use. At speed, a compound loco is harder on the track because of the "nosing" effect of the front engine with its large cylinders.
Though German engineering school is close to me, but Amerkian locomotives are number 1. Power, strength, reliability. The articulated locomotives of the United States are perhaps the crown of a locomotive building. Challenger or "behemot"? I like the monster more like it.

What really interests me is the speed of the locomotive. Speed is also scaled from the speed of a real prototype? In addition to the speed, there is probably a speed limit on the track (in connection with safety)?

From what I remember from your messages, you would be building this not as an individual but as part of a team with access to a lot of commercial machinery.
No, you're wrong. This is a nonprofit project. The model will be built by the forces of my family and my friends. At the same time, such a locomotive can be an incentive for the development of the garden railway in Belarus. Therefore, we must very carefully approach the choice of the prototype.
1. Is the boiler going to be copper, steel or the stainless system that is used in Australia? There are plusses and minuses to each of these.
Copper is good. For English locomotive - very good (authenticity).
For a large articulated locomotive - an exceptionally welded construction. Stainless steel for boilers.
2. What fuel are you going to use?
Liquid fuel is very good, technologically, but ... I like coal.
3. Are you going to use ball and roller bearings throughout?
Is the sliding bearings not suitable? So as on the original?
5. As someone else said, how are you going to transport this "beast?" Even for Big Boy in 3 1/2" gauge, the engine & tender weigh 300lb and are 8 feet long. If you do the math, for 10 1/4" gauge the same thing is going to be 3 times as long and weigh 27 times more.
Transportation by parts with subsequent assembly. For me this is not a big problem.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by Bill Shields »

transport 'by parts' translates as separating locomotive from the tender.

How long will the LOCOMOTIVE ALONE be?

Do / will you have a trailer large enough to transport just the loco?

if you have such transport available, that is good -> you are 1/2 way to the solution.

NOW consider -> where you will be TAKING the loco -> do they have a LIFT / TRANSFER TABLE that is large enough to work for the loco?

New people in the hobby don't think if these things until they are a problem.

I know that the 1-1/2" CHALLENGER that has been in our area for many years is at the LIMIT of what some of the clubs can handle.

Other clubs...it is too large and / or too heavy.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
EVGEN
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by EVGEN »

transport 'by parts' translates as separating locomotive from the tender.
Why not? I'm not going to transport the locomotive from place to place.
Do / will you have a trailer large enough to transport just the loco?
I have the opportunity to use a small truck;) However, as well as a forklift.
New people in the hobby don't think if these things until they are a problem.
You did not live in the Soviet Union;) Transportation of the locomotive is the last thing to think about. Believe me.

And in general, let's talk on the topic. Help me to decide on the prototype. How would you like to see the locomotive?
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Bill Shields
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by Bill Shields »

Ah...so you are not going to take the loco to a 'club' and run it around a track?

Or you have a track at the location where you will build?

I am a simple locomotive builder (now) and am building something that I can almost 'hand carry' to / from my car.

Being a LIVE STEAMER here in the USA means (to me and many) that it is a social activity were we gather at a club where there is track and we run our locomotives, drink beer and talk about what 'old steamers' talk about.

I have a 1-1/2" 2-8-0 that weighs 300 KG and is 2 meters long (loco) + 1 meter for the tender.

This requires special lifts and trucks for transport as well as a rolling work - stand in my shop.

When I started the project (1985), I was dreaming about a large locomotive without understanding the reality of transport.

Now that I am 66 and have the reality of a special vehicle for transport, "smaller is better" because it will fit in my Subaru and I can drive to the club without having a special vehicle / truck.

When I was young I built a very detailed 3/4" NYC Hudson, which now sits in my basement.

My ideas now are KISS

Keep It Simple (for) Steaming

The fewer parts there are, the fewer problems I will have at the track, so I can enjoy myself.

Other people have different ideas and want to build something that is a large, very detailed model.

I am always amazed at the work that I see from these builders -> but it is not me and what I would suggest should not be any influence on your decision. Have you seen what ASTEAMHEAD (Germany) is doing with a "Y"???? ABSOLUTELY AMAZING...

NOW, I run a little (15 KG) 0-4-0 in 3/4" with a vertical boiler - 30 CM long loco + 30 CM long tender. VERY SIMPLE, very easy to operate = lots of fun with little work.

>>>>>

I can suggest that no matter what model you decide to build, understand the AMOUNT of work required to build even a small, simple steam locomotive.

Large, articulated locos are a HUGE amount of work. If you have never built a steam loco, you have no idea of how much work will be required.

You must realize that it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to scale down a set of prints and build something that will run.

Some things just cannot be 'scaled down' -> and until you have built a steam locomotive, you may not understand what must be changed when you build to a smaller scale.

Remember:

In the mechanical engineering world:

WORK = FORCE * DISTANCE

In the LIVE STEAM WORLD:

WORK = TIME + $$$

*********

If you are considering building 2 * LOCOS, with one for sale, understand the anyone purchasing a loco will have to consider the transport difficulties unless they have a 'home track' or a museum where the locomotive can live.

I wish you luck and hope to see photos of your progress.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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Chris Hollands
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by Chris Hollands »

I would like to know what you mean by very detailed ?
I have a very detailed 7 1/2 G Challenger it has taken me 20 years and 11600 hrs and I'm still going .
Tom millers Big Boy was I think 16000hrs to build .
Its nice to dream but you may want to have a real think about what your proposing, a articulated loco is a very different fish to a standard loco .
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NP317
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by NP317 »

EVGEN asked:
"Is the sliding bearings not suitable? So as on the original?"
in response to: "(3. Are you going to use ball and roller bearings throughout?)"

American prototype "super-power" steam locomotives" were all Timkin roller bearings throughout, from about the 1930s onward.
This includes Challengers, Big Boys, and most other high speed large locomotives.
Roller or ball bearings are usually a better long-term bearing, less susceptible to soil/dirt contamination, and can be "pressure lubricated."
My 1/8 scale 4-6-0 has ball bearings on the drive axels and has run flawlessly for 16 years.

I Just completed a 1/8th scale 2-8-2 logging locomotive and my model uses sealed ball bearings for all wheels.
I just ran it on 7-1/2" gauge tracks for the first time today (10 years to build) and it works very nicely.

Finally: I am a fan of the A-4 Pacifics, having ridden behind a pair double-heading a train in Southern England. The famous "Mallard" was the lead locomotive.
I was surprised how small they appeared compared to the large N American Steamers I am familiar with.
So I would vote for you to build an A-4 Pacific, as shown in the video.

My recommendation, anyway.
~RN
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NP317
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by NP317 »

EVGEN:
You might also consider a smaller USA logging 2-6-6-2. Many were built for use in the USA. Prototype weight was 120 - 140 US tons.
I have engineered 2 full-sized ones, and they satisfy my need for articulated-Mallets, but a more manageable size.

Note: We learned to say about articulated locomotives: "Twice the work for the same amount of fun."
~RN
Snoqualmie # 11 mid 1980s shortly after rebuild..jpg
Mallet004.jpg
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Bill Shields
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by Bill Shields »

only TWICE the work? Giggle....

I would rather build 2 boilers than go through the headaches of the articulation...but then I have always been a little odd about things like that.
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NP317
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by NP317 »

Build two engines. Once the set ups are done the actual manufacturing is pretty easy.
Cut, drink, sleep, repeat.
Same ol' same ol'.
~RN
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Builder01
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by Builder01 »

A good example would be putting the flutes in the six rods for my loco. It was not simple to get them all to look exactly the way I wanted. Making six more, even if exactly like the first six, is not my idea of fun. I would rather use the time to move on the next parts to be made. At any price, I would not spend my valuable time building a loco for someone else. Life is short. Unless, all you want to do is build locomotives and are not interested in actually operating them. For me, the destination is most important, the journey (in the shop) is quite tedious.

David
EVGEN
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by EVGEN »

Already two votes in favor of English A4. I was almost certain that Challenger would have the most votes.
At any price, I would not spend my valuable time building a loco for someone else. Life is short. Unless, all you want to do is build locomotives and are not interested in actually operating them.
If this will speed up the construction of your locomotive, then why not;)
RET
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Re: Choice of prototype

Post by RET »

Hi Evgen,

You say that the locomotive(s) will be built by your family and friends. If so, two very important considerations are what equipment do you have available to use and what hands on practical machining experience do each of you have? To a great degree, this will determine what is possible in your situation. For things like side rods etc. some kind of CNC equipment (possibly even homebuilt) would be advantageous. Also, digital readouts will be a necessity, not an option.

In addition, if you are planning on financing this project by selling one locomotive, you need to find out what the potential market is, who your prospective customers are and if they have the money. You just might be building something that nobody in your area wants or can afford.

For most of us, we do this for the love of it, not for any financial rewards that may come our way. Its like the couplers I worked on. There is no way you can build something like that and make money. Typically, for the number of hours you spend, your rate of return is about $1.00 per hour and that's if you know what you are doing and don't make any mistakes. None of this is said to discourage you, its just the reality that you must face and its best to know what to expect before you start.

Two things.
First, if you look at the Big Boy thread you can see the level of detail that exists on that locomotive in 3 1/2" gauge and its easy to see that it is very good. Now Big Boy was only Gerhardt's second locomotive and he did an incredible job. His son Gunter told us how his father worked. The following excerpt is from our Big Boy thread.
"Gunther said that his father would go down to the basement early in the morning and work all day, just taking breaks for meals and any necessary housework (which was minimal). He would quit in the evening, but not before 9:00 pm. This meant that he was putting in a 10 to 11 hour workday. He kept that up for 5 years, and the results certainly show it."
Obviously in a larger gauge you can add more detail but this will give you some idea of the time and effort that are necessary. One of the characteristics of a very good or "museum quality" model is that the closer you look, the more there is to see, things that you just didn't notice before.

Second, doing the math says that 10 1/4" gauge is pretty close to 3 times the size of our 3 1/2" gauge Big Boy, so a 10 1/4" gauge Big Boy engine and tender will be 24 feet long and it will weigh 8,500 pounds or 3,346 kilograms. Not exactly something you can tuck under your arm and walk off with. I grew up in the country, so I can understand how you feel about moving stuff about; farmers do it all the time and think nothing of it.

As far as fuel goes, propane or oil might be more practical, but in the size you are considering, coal would be possible if the engineer/fireman sat in the coal space in the tender the way the Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch operators do in England.

For it to work, the boiler has to be different internally than in full size. Our Big Boy has 4 flues and 14 tubes (see the pictures) which is about right for that scale. Since you are closer to full size, the tubes and flues need to also be closer to full size practice, probably somewhere in the middle between our model and the real thing.

You also asked about track and safe speeds.
One of my 3 1/2" gauge locomotives has been clocked at 10 miles per hour (not km/hr!) and a good 7 1/4" gauge model can do at least 2 or 3 times that with good track and large radius curves. Clubs generally limit 7 1/4 or 7 1/2" gauge locomotives to 10 miles per hour for safety reasons, not because they can't go faster. Following that logic, a locomotive in the scale you are contemplating should be able to hit at least 50 miles an hour, but that would be too fast to be safe. Remember that as the scale sizes increase, the danger also increases. For a large locomotive in 10 1/4" gauge, If you make a mistake in either design or operation, someone can easily get badly hurt or even killed, so think and act accordingly.

Finally, get as many full size movies of the real thing in operation as you can. I have videos from Pentrex that show both Challengers and Big Boys in operation. I also have a set of 3 video disks called "The Twilight of Steam" and the third disk is titled "Steam Giants across America" which shows articulated locomotives. You would find these very helpful. In particular, "The Twilight of Steam" video shows quite a bit of the "Y" class Norfolk & Western articulateds working coal trains, some showing one Y on the head end and another pushing at the rear of the train. In all of these videos the sound has been added later and isn't always in sync but they are still very impressive to watch.

As you can see, this is not an easy thing to decide; there are many aspects that have to be considered. I wish you all the luck there is, but please look at all sides of the elephant before you start.

Richard Trounce.
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