Welding Machine

[John Hasler]

Good that we agree.

[Harold_V]

BDD----are you familiar with McIntosh?

H

[SteveHGraham]

The manual for the McIntosh MC2KW says it has two power supplies, each with its own AC source. Apparently, you have to put them on separate circuits. One wonders how audiophiles feel about that. You can't just plug stuff into the wall. You have to use special cords and power conditioners and special voodoo rocks. Surely McIntosh doesn't expect people to use long extension cords that haven't been soaked in holy water or validated by Stereophile magazine.

The amazing thing to me is that it's a transistor amplifier. I didn't know McIntosh made those.

High-end audio people are always entertaining. A salesman tried to convince me I needed expensive speaker cables, and he even loaned me a pair to try out. I switched them back and forth with Home Depot wire a number of times, and after a while I thought I could hear a subtle difference, so I figured I would get the Gucci wires. At the end of the test, I thought I was listening through them, but when I went to unhook them, I found I was really listening to my Home Depot beauties. I took the expensive wires back to the audio salon and never looked back.

[Steggy]

BDD----are you familiar with McIntosh?

H

I am. In fact, I owned some McIntosh gear in the 1960s.

[Steggy]

The amazing thing to me is that it's a transistor amplifier. I didn't know McIntosh made those.

McIntosh started producing solid state gear in the 1960s, around the time production yields on NPN silicon power transistors substantially improved and wholesale costs came down. Their principle competitor of the time, Harman/Kardon, also took the solid state plunge around then. Neither's solid state amps sounded as good as their tube units, however. It was Dynaco (specifically David Hafler) who made the first really good-sounding solid state stereo amps.

High-end audio people are always entertaining. A salesman tried to convince me I needed expensive speaker cables, and he even loaned me a pair to try out. I switched them back and forth with Home Depot wire a number of times, and after a while I thought I could hear a subtle difference, so I figured I would get the Gucci wires. At the end of the test, I thought I was listening through them, but when I went to unhook them, I found I was really listening to my Home Depot beauties. I took the expensive wires back to the audio salon and never looked back.

In wire that connects a speaker to an amplifier, ampacity is the key—that's really all that matters. The distances and frequencies aren't sufficient to bring transmission line effects into play, so it comes down to minimizing power losses in the wire.

In my own stereo, I made the speaker connections with 12 AWG stranded lamp cord of the kind that may be purchased at almost any hardware store. 12 AWG has a DC resistance of approximately 0.016 ohms per 10 linear feet. An 8 ohm speaker being driven at 100 watts—a power level that would be extremely loud with modern speakers—draws about 3.54 amperes from the amplifier's output stage. Hence the power loss through my lamp cord speaker connection at 100 watts loading would be I²R, which is 3.54² × .016, or approximately 0.2 watts.

My opinion is audiophiles who purchase fancy speaker cables are being taken.

[Harold_V]

My opinion is audiophiles who purchase fancy speaker cables are being taken.

I agree. I ran #10 stranded THHN to my shop. Haven't hooked up the speakers yet (way too much to do that matters), but I expect I'll have no issues. Why should I?
I ran the same wire in my stereo room, and it performs to my expectation.

Some of those nuts will even try to have you believe that the insulation type makes a difference. Even if it did, would human ears be able to discern what little difference it made? I think not!

I've owned McIntosh since the mid 60's, starting out with one of their Mc 240 tube type amp and a tube pre-amp/tuner. I have upgraded several times, and have used a Mc 2105 amp, then a Mc 2300, which I ran for years. My last acquisition was a Mc 402, all three of which are solid state. I defy anyone to tell me that it doesn't sound as nice as a tube type, and I have the added bonus of a distortion level of 5/1000% at rated output (400 watts RMS), and no need to replace output tubes on a regular schedule to ensure peak performance.

McIntosh used to provide replacement tubes at no charge to the owner if they'd take the piece of equipment to the free clinics they used to operate across the nation. That, of course, is now long gone, as McIntosh is no longer owned by Mr. McIntosh, much to my chagrin.

McIntosh, if anything, rates their equipment conservatively. They are also proud of what they build. VERY proud, indeed.

H

[Harold_V]

The manual for the McIntosh MC2KW says it has two power supplies, each with its own AC source. Apparently, you have to put them on separate circuits. One wonders how audiophiles feel about that. You can't just plug stuff into the wall. You have to use special cords and power conditioners and special voodoo rocks.

That's not really Mc's style. They build robust equipment that meets stringent standards, but they don't sell you nonsense. Makes it easy for them to play in to the hands of those who think that you must hold your mouth just right when turning on the equipment, but they don't make a mystery out of much. Fact is, before they were bought out, they used to send a full complement of schematics with their equipment. They don't do that anymore. They also used to warranty for three years, but when you'd submit the warranty application it was usually returned valid for five years. Good stuff. I know from experience.

Oh, by the way---they no longer provide that five year warranty, either.

H

[RET]

Hi, I'm not sure what the connection is between a welder and Hi Fi equipment, but that doesn't really matter.

McIntosh has always had a good reputation (I'm talking about years ago).

Two things that do matter in the Hi Fi world. First, the argument for heavy speaker cabling does have a "SLIGHT" foundation in fact. It only makes a difference for the VERY low frequencies (the kind you can feel in your chest). These frequencies require large current flows to move the speaker coil through the large travel that is required. Of course, they also require very large cones (or flat surfaces) to connect with the air. Only the purist is going to really care about this, most people won't really notice the difference.

Higher frequencies can carry much more energy and when you get up to 10,000 cycles or more, they can damage your hearing.

I guess it was back in the '70's that they went from rms power to instantaneous peak power, to make the numbers look better. Back then they didn't have large power transistors and everyone was trying to say, "I'm the best" and that was an easy way to do it. Instantaneous peak power comes into play for percussive sounds like chimes, castanets, cymbals, etc. when you need to produce a sharp spike in sound. Rms (root mean square) power is true power like you use for electric motors, etc.

Hope this helps clear things up a bit.

Richard Trounce.

[SteveHGraham]

I have a buddy who mentions my Home Depot wires just about every time we talk about sound. He is convinced I'm ruining my system with an Onkyo amplifier and hardware store wires. I have some Arcam amps, but they're gathering dust in storage. Too much hassle to use, and the sound is no better. One annoying thing about audiophile amps is that they're very primitive. If you want one that you can connect to HDMI and so on, the price goes through the roof. I bought a recently discontinued Onkyo for less than half of its original price, and it works great with every modern component imaginable. It even has a phono stage.

Audiophiles have the idea that cheap wires separate the frequencies in time, because of skin effect. If you tell them skin effect is negligible at frequencies humans can hear, suddenly their superhuman hearing shuts off.

I saw a funny article years ago. Some audiophile tested various wires against extension cord material. He published graphs of the wires' performance. The extension cord graph was virtually identical to some of the Gucci-wire graphs, and he still concluded, from the graphs, that there was an obvious difference in performance. Not only did the cables sound different to him; their graphs mysteriously looked different.

My friend bought a Linn turntable. Probably refinanced his house to buy it. A few years later, he switched to the latest digital source, because the Linn was suddenly beneath him. He raves about the new machine. Thing is, he's 62, and even if there were a difference, he almost certainly would not be able to hear it.

[John Hasler]

Possibly apocryphal story:

An audio engineer set up an A/B demo using audiophile-quality speakers and sound source to compare ordinary speaker wire and some gold-plated "low oxygen" brand. Big switch labeled "Cheap wire" and "Low distortion wire". Sat some audiophile experts down to listen and watch while he switched back and forth. They agreed unanimously that the fancy wire was better. They could even describe the distortion they heard from the cheap wire.

Then he took them around to the back of the setup and showed them what they had been listening to.

The "cheap wire" was just something from Home Depot. What they thought was the fancy stuff was old coat hangers twisted together.

[SteveHGraham]

Possibly apocryphal story:

An audio engineer set up an A/B demo using audiophile-quality speakers and sound source to compare ordinary speaker wire and some gold-plated "low oxygen" brand. Big switch labeled "Cheap wire" and "Low distortion wire". Sat some audiophile experts down to listen and watch while he switched back and forth. They agreed unanimously that the fancy wire was better. They could even describe the distortion they heard from the cheap wire.

Then he took them around to the back of the setup and showed them what they had been listening to.

The "cheap wire" was just something from Home Depot. What they thought was the fancy stuff was old coat hangers twisted together.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/t ... 512/page-2

[warmstrong1955]

Might be interesting to hear from the original poster.
I think he was looking for a welder, and with the currant direction of the thread.....gave up.