4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

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Grant J
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4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by Grant J » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:26 pm

I am trying to construct a 1" scale 1872 Baldwin Locomotive. This particular engine interests me as the original engine resides in the Winnipeg Railway Museum. It was the first locomotive to arrive in western Canada. To my knowledge no one has modelled this engine. The engine was built by Baldwin and changed hands a couple of times before arriving in Canada. I have scoured all of the archives in North America to source a set of original drawings but have come up empty. John from Friends Models has sold me a set of cylinder castings and drawings for the HJ Coventry, which comes close. I also have a set of Reeves drawings for the Rogers engine which is also similar. I have made two trips to the museum, each time with a camera, tape measure and paper at hand, but it seems impossible to gather all the information one needs.If there is anyone that might be able to help me with any of this, it would sure be appreciated. I am in the Saskatoon Model Engineering Society, however these days there is not much local interest in locomotives. We did have a track, which was dismanteled for lack of use and safety concerns.
Grant

Mountaineer
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Re: 4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:38 pm

Do you know of the Winnipeg based Manitoba Live Steamers? Someone may have info in that group.

Mountaineer.

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Bill Shields
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Re: 4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by Bill Shields » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:02 pm

there are a lot of Baldwin loco prints at the Pennsylvania state railroad museum -> it isn't just limited to Penna Railroad

https://rrmuseumpa.org/collections/research/

you can also poke around in their digitized archive lists

Many of the Baldwin locos were VERY SIMILAR...so I would be surprised if you could not find something.

Original Baldwin number?

picture?

Have you looked in "the locomotives that baldwin built"?

On page 13 there is a 4-4-0 they built in 1876...looks a LOT like the CP173

At the bottom of the page there is another 4-4-0 built in 1879 for the Long Island RR

C. A. Brown was the 'official' Baldwin Photographer in those days.

Does it look anything like this??

https://www.google.com/search?q=phantom ... XfYP7269-M:
Too many things going on to bother listing them.

Steve Bratina
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Re: 4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by Steve Bratina » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:10 pm

There is a 3/4" live steam model of the Countess of Duffern at the Komoka Museum. The last time I saw it, it was sitting in the corner of an old tin barn on a shelf. If was donated (left) to the museum by a local. I don't think they even took his name down. I have no idea if it came with any plans or not.

Grant J
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Re: 4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by Grant J » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:00 pm

Thanks guys for your responses. I will try to answer in the order the questions were posed.
The maker’s classification is Class 25 1/2C.
I am told that the “C” denotes it was a custom design.
I was able to find Baldwin’s log which indicated it was ordeted in 1871 and delivered in 1872 to the Northern Pacific Railroad. Apparently this railroad ordered 6 of these at the same time. Distinguishing differences:
-boiler is 48” and is perfectly cylindrical.
-it has 3 domes.
-the pilot structure is reported unique.
-used steam injectors rather than the crosshead feed pumps that were more common then.
-solid pilot wheels.

I have contacted the archives you guys have mentioned. In fact I think they got tired of me pestering them. It appears that the earlier records were lost. One archivist went as far to say they are fortunate to have what they do, for apparently most of the plans were thrown in the garbage when Baldwin collapsed. He claimed the employees actually pulled most of the drawings out of the garbage.
The biggest difference apart from those listed above is that it is a rather low slung locomotive with the lower edge of the boiler almost at the same height as the platform on the front pilot. Most of the Americans that I have studied have the boiler mounted much higher, as the Coventry 4-4-0 has.
I will send some pictures in later postings.

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Dick_Morris
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Re: 4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by Dick_Morris » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:33 pm

It appears that something may be missing from your BLW class designation. These pages are from an 1881 BLW catalog. Baldwin used this Byzantine classification scheme until about 1940. Note that many different designs will fall into the same class, including different gauges and locomotives with inside or outside drivers.

I suggest you take a look at Jan-Eric Nystrom's BLW 3003 for inspiration and information on 1875 BLW design. http://ibls.org/files/Wandering_Locomot ... n_3003.pdf

This is a Finnish 4-4-0 built by BLW, circa 1875. I believe the prototype was 5' gauge. It follows U.S. design practices.

Jan-Eric photographed a large number of 1875 Finnish copies of the original BLW drawings and shared them with a group of live steamers. Reductions of a few of the drawings are shown in the link, above. The drawings show considerable detail of the various individual parts.
Attachments
BLW class 1.jpg
BLW class 2.jpg

KenG
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Re: 4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by KenG » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:52 am

There is quite a bit of early Baldwin information online. As stated the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum has the photographs. You can preview before you buy but its difficult to find them with a search engine. Try this link.

https://rrmuseumpa.andornot.com/list?q= ... &p=1&ps=20

The DeGolyer Library at SMU has the specification sheets online.

http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm/r ... /rwy/id/32

Looks like the Northern Pacific locomotive was a class 25-1/2C drawing no 4. 15 inch cylinder diameter. The C means 4 driving wheels. The Smithsonian has a few of the drawings from this era. I don't have my list with me but some are on line. DeGolyer has a lot more drawings but none listed for the Northern Pacific.

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Re: 4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by GORAN ROSEN » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:17 pm


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Fender
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Re: 4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by Fender » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:58 pm

Grant J wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:00 pm

The maker’s classification is Class 25 1/2C.
I am told that the “C” denotes it was a custom design.
A 4-4-0 would have a Baldwin class of 8-nn-C, where nn is a number derived from the cylinder bore diameter. The 8 means it has eight wheels, and C means it has four drivers. Not sure what the 25 1/2 C is.
Dan Watson

Grant J
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Re: 4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by Grant J » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:01 pm

I was able to get a copy of the “Build Specification sheet” which is an authentic page right out of the Baird log book. No doubt, it clearly states 25 1/2C and engines were numbered 66 to 71 which matches up with other info that stated Northern Pacific ordered 6 of these.
I have been to the Degolyer, Pa, and Smithsonian. Nothing at any of them. The build log by the Finnish guy is certainly close so I am going to study that.

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Dick_Morris
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Re: 4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by Dick_Morris » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:38 pm

24 is 15" bore, 26 is 16" bore from the catalog. I wonder if 25 is 15-1/2" bore? The fraction appears to indicate the number and arrangement of the trucks.

Grant J
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Re: 4-4-0 Baldwin Information Needed

Post by Grant J » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:42 am

Here are some of the specs that I know:
48” straight boiler
3 domes on octagonal bases
Tubes 10’ 9-3/4”
15” cylinders
24” stroke
5” eccentric throw
5-1/2” valve travel
56-3/4” drivers
Swing bolster trucks?
26” truck wheels

A fellow by the name of Peter Abel, now deceased, published a good booklet containing lots of information. I got this from the museum in winnipeg along with a print that was drawn on linen. It is accurate in an overall view but the rest is too faded to be of value. The red river club in winnipeg were not able to help me.

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