Question about a DLS ad

[cp4449]

There is a beautiful 5" loco for sale on DLS

https://discoverlivesteam.com/discoverf ... /index.htm

Watch the video of the locomotive for sale. What I would like to know is why over here in the USA on elevated lines, we did not adopt the full startle riding cars like the Bits do in the video? They look a lot safer to ride and control the locomotive.

Also, does anyone know what track this is, and do you think he was going faster than you or I would do?

Thanks

[jabsteam]

Too bad they don't show loading passengers. Looks pretty tough to climb up on the elevated track to sling a leg over to straddle sit on the cars. Then, how do you get off the cars?
Check out Pioneer Valley LS or Waushakum LS videos on Utube, they both have 4 3/4" and 3 1/2" raised tracks.

[FLSTEAM]

That sure runs faster than I would like to ride behind.

JB

[Pontiacguy1]

It's also 5" gauge, so finding somewhere to run the thing in the US would be very difficult. You'd either have to re-gauge it or build your own track.

[gwrdriver]

That's a beautiful model. I know there is 5" gauge in Canada, Ottawa Valley LS, Alberta MES, BCSME, Frontenac, Montreal LS, Saskatoon MES, and Vancouver Island LS to name several. In England (and Australia) 5"ga supplanted 3.5"ga as the most popular gauge a couple of decades ago, so this loco would be in quite a bit more demand there and probably the only chance at getting anywhere near the asking price would be to export.

Most raised tracks for straddle cars in club operation have continuous purlins on both sides of the supporting piers to prevent the cars tipping. Sure beats the stuffins out of riding side-saddle on a flatcar!

[RET]

Hi,

gwrdriver has it right. Yes there are 5" gauge tracks in Canada, but there are 4 3/4" tracks as well. When you look at it, 4 3/4" is actually closer to scale for 1/12 full size, but for some reason, 5" became the world standard. Similarly, 7 1/4" is the world standard for 1/8 full size except in the Western part of the US. and Canada.

If I remember correctly (I think I saw it in an early Modeltec), in a letter to a model builder in the west who wanted to know what the proper gauge was for 1/8 full size, the person replying typed 7 and then hit the 1/2 key instead of the 1/4 (which was the right one). By the time the error was caught, it was too late. For those of you who are too young to remember, typewriters used to have both individual 1/4 and 1/2 keys to make typing faster.

Here, the Montreal Live steamers ride side saddle, but as far as I know, most others ride astride. Mostly it seems to be a matter of individual preference. In the video you can see the anti tip purlins on the track. Passengers in particular, can lean out too far to get that perfect video or "selfie."

As far as the speed in the video is concerned, the "Jubilee" I have, a 3 1/2" gauge 2-6-4, can go that fast and in the video it looks to be about ten miles an hour. Jubilee was clocked at that speed at the "Golden Horseshoe Live Steamers" track in Hamilton Ont. If the "suspension" on the model is right, it will stay on with no problem. When Don & I went to Hoffman's place he told us that his 999 model had been clocked with a radar gun at somewhere between 30 & 40 miles an hour (7 1/4" gauge)."

A beautiful model, but also a beautiful price.

Richard Trounce.

[Harold_V]

Hmmm. Neither 7½" or 7¼" gauge are proper for 1/8" scale model railroading. How did either of them become a standard?

Proper gauge, assuming one hoped to scale properly, would be 7-1/16". (Assuming standard gauge is 56½", multiply 56.5" x .125).

The somewhat popular 1.5929"=12" (1.6) is proper 1/8 scale.

H

[steamingon]

Track location is Urmston & District Model Engineering Society . http://www.udmes.co.uk/

[RET]

Hi Harold,

You are right, the proper gauge for 7 1/4" would be close to 7 1/16," not 7 1/4" or 7 1/2." Now, 3 1/2" is close, but just a little under for 1/16 of full size. Don't ask me where 5" came from for 1/12 full size because I don't know. It is off by quite a bit. As a guess, it might have been to allow a bit more room for fitting the inside cylinders and valve gear that were common in British locomotives.

Remember, all this "nonsense" started in England some time around 1900. LBSC made most of his models for 2 1/2" gauge, probably because that was the smallest gauge that could haul a person and in that scale, models could be built with the equipment that was available to the average amateur, like treadle lathes and hand tools. In his time, 3 1/2" gauge was known as "millionaires gauge," too expensive for many amateurs.

He was a very different person and his output was enormous. For quite a long time, he wrote weekly articles for Model Engineer, made plans and built models, all of which appeared in Model Engineer every week! The LBSC pen name comes from the initials of the London, Brighton and South Coast railway which he worked for at one time.

I have quite a collection of Model Engineers courtesy of Dave Powell and they can be a valuable resource of plans for various models, etc. In Model Engineer, each locomotive had a name; for instance, Dart is an 0-4-2 7 1/4" gauge tank engine and Jubilee is a 3 1/2" gauge 2-6-4 tank engine. Tank engines are popular as models because you don't have to reach over a long tender to operate the locomotive. Tank engines were common in England, but there weren't too many used on this continent.

Richard Trounce.

[gwrdriver]

To answer Harold's question of "How did either of them become a standard?", one needs to understand what things were back in say, 1880.
There were commercial producers of designs and castings in 1880 and earlier, as well as lone hands beavering away in relative isolation with little or no communication with other builders. In those conditions producers and builders tended to produce and build in whatever size and gauge was convenient for them with little or no regard for what gauge or scale the chap in the next town was building in. This was true of both UK and the USA. Over time I've been asked to evaluate several such early individual efforts (built in the USA), family heirlooms typically, which were not to what we now consider to be a standard gauge, because they didn't exist.

"Standarization" of scale and gauge, at least in the UK, has traditionally been laid at the feet of Henry Greenly, an engineer and a pioneer in developing live steam as we know it today and a prolific builder and author. Between 1900 and 1920 he wrote a series of books on live steam practice which standardized various aspects of live steam, including scale and gauge. (See photo) He didn't invent the scales and gauges but through his publications they became standardized. How we in the USA ended up with 4.75" over 5" gauge, I don't know.

[jcbrock]

I know there is 5" gauge in Canada, Ottawa Valley LS, Alberta MES, BCSME, Frontenac, Montreal LS, Saskatoon MES, and Vancouver Island LS to name several.

I'll add the Manitoba Live Steamers and in the US the St Croix Railroad near Hudson, WI. The St Croix ended up with a 5" gauge on the elevated because MLS was kind enough to long-term loan the forms they use for their elevated footings, and the favor was returned by adding a 5" gauge rail to give them another place to run. Also, a South African emigre joined at about the same time and he has 5" gauge models. The elevated does not yet have the anti-tip rails, but it has to have more track rails than anywhere else I have seen!

I see advantages to both straddle and side-saddle. Straddle seems much more intuitive to the casual rider, but side-saddlers like to demonstrate their skill while at the same time being able to bail out easily.

[SteveM]

The St Croix ended up with a 5" gauge on the elevated ...

That's going to be a problem for me if I ever bring my steamer out. The locomotive is 3-1/2" and the riding car is 4-3/4".

It was originally set up for running at PVLS, NJLS and LILS, which have both of those on the high line

Steve