This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

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Harold_V
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by Harold_V »

shild wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:49 pm Not even sure if it's right hand thread or left hand.
There's enough of the thread exposed to make a determination. Look at the helix and see which direction you must turn the nut so it will be removed. They are usually right hand, however, but don't assume yours is.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
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milwiron
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by milwiron »

Harold_V wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:43 pm Please do NOT discredit their use.

H
Hello Harold,
You're simply mistaken. At no time did I discredit the use of any material holding device or system. I have not discouraged the use of soft jaws. I have not used terms like slow and cumbersome as in your post. For the record, Saturday or Sunday I plan on boring out a 7 inch x 2" square piece of 1018. It'll take all of 4 or 5 minutes to center that piece of stock dead on in the 4 jaw. Hardly slow and cumbersome.

I did say learning to use a 4 jaw will be of more use to a new machinist than soft jaws. Hardly discrediting. In addition, most beginner type lathe packages include a 4 jaw chuck and also a 3 jaw chuck that doesn't have bolt-on replaceable jaws. Investing in a different usually more expensive chuck is not often an option for people getting in to machining or setting up a shop for the first time.

I've machined with state of the art equipment and equipment that was worn out before I was born; I have never blamed or discredited machines or tooling.

In a nutshell:
If I could have one, and only one, chuck or work holding system for a toolroom or hobby size horizontal lathe being used for varied turning operations as found in the live steam hobby it would be a 4 jaw chuck.

I'll leave it there.
Happy Holidays,
Denny
Edit: Fixed some auto correct and spelling errors. Punctuation, no hope.
"Measure twice, curse once."
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Harold_V
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by Harold_V »

milwiron wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:22 am If I could have one, and only one, chuck or work holding system for a toolroom or hobby size horizontal lathe being used for varied turning operations as found in the live steam hobby it would be a 4 jaw chuck.
I'd make the same choice if I had only one option. Anyone who understands lathe operations would, and for obvious reasons. But what does that have to do with the point at hand?

Clearly, nothing.

Fortunately, most of our readers are not restricted to just one holding device, and can certainly benefit by knowing how to use soft jaws successfully, assuming they have a three jaw with master jaws. Some chucks come with them, as well as the two varieties of hard jaws. Mine did, in fact. The master jaws are used for roughly 99% of my chuck work. But that's me---it doesn't have to be you, or anyone else. It is an option. It is not a directive. I've tried to point out the benefits for those who are not acquainted with their use. It numbers amongst other ways to improve one's workbench, which was the question posed by the OP.

Just sayin'!

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
RET
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by RET »

Hi shild,

What you need to get the lock nuts off is called a "hook wrench." They come in different sizes, the fancier ones have a hinge on the "hook," to cover a small range of nut sizes, others don't. If you really want to disassemble the spindle, they're easy enough to make (the non-hinge kind) out of mild steel. Just make it so the "hook" is 90 degrees away from the handle and the wrench only bears on the nut where the handle is. This way, all the torque from the handle bears on the nut. You will have to make two so you can use one on each nut at the same time.

Personally, I would just leave everything alone for two reasons.

First, when properly used, it isn't the key that drives the collet, its the tightness of the collet taper in the spindle. That interference is much more powerful than any torque the key can deliver. Just make sure the collet is tight. I use R8 collets in my Bridgeport and I always make sure the collet is drawn up in the spindle with a 3/4" box end wrench when the spindle brake is on so the spindle can't turn.

Second and more important from your pictures, the fact that there are two nuts tells me that the nuts provide a controlled preload on the spindle bearings and unless you really know what you are doing, its best to just leave everything the way it is. To adjust the setup on assembly, you would need to snug up the first nut finger tight and then turn it a set fraction of a turn (that applies the preload) and then bring the second nut up to lock the first nut on the threads without allowing that nut to turn on the threads. That set fraction of a turn would have to be given by the manufacturer of the mill. Too little would mean a slight amount of play which isn't good for the bearings or for the accuracy of the mill and too much will cause premature bearing failure.

Also, when you put everything back together, try to be as clean as you can with the assembly. You can lubricate things with a little grease.

Richard Trounce.
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Greg_Lewis
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by Greg_Lewis »

RET wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:46 am ...

Second and more important from your pictures, the fact that there are two nuts tells me that the nuts provide a controlled preload on the spindle bearings and unless you really know what you are doing, its best to just leave everything the way it is. ...

Richard Trounce.

^ ^ ^ This.
As the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 35 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.
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Greg_Lewis
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by Greg_Lewis »

I would add that the purpose of the key is not to hold the collet during cutting but to prevent the collet from spinning when tightening the drawbar. I suspect that the manufacturers of these things put that in there for that reason and they probably know what they are doing.
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 35 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.
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NP317
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by NP317 »

In the 40+ years I have worked with Bridgeport type milling machines, I have never broken a collet-alignment key, but had to replace two that were damaged by mis-use.
I leave them in place, and take care of them so they can continue to do their alignment job.
I would never remove a good key!
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RET
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by RET »

Hi shild,

I thought it might help if I show how I do things on my mill.

A long time ago, I inherited the frame and wheels for Jeannie Deans, a 3 1/2" scale model of an English Webb compound designed by L.B.S.C. the guy who started all this stuff in England over a hundred years ago.

Jeanie Deans is not a beginner's locomotive, but it is interesting because its a compound with the two outside high pressure cylinders driving the rear axle and the center low pressure cylinder driving the front main axle. There are also a pair of front pilot wheels for guidance. There are no coupling rods between the driving axles. Recently, I decided to work on "Jeannie" so I got the castings (except for the wheels which I had) and drawings from Reeves in England. As you can see in the last two pictures, I have made the rear axle and the crank axle is partly done.
Milling final axlebox down to finished thickness
Milling final axlebox down to finished thickness
This first picture shows the final axlebox held in the vice and supported by two parallels so that the vice grips the part by the lower 3/16" only. This gives plenty of exposure for the cutter to work on the part. By the way, in the picture you can see I'm using a 3/4" dia. end mill in two parallel passes to face off the surface. Since the head has been "trammed in" (truly perpendicular to the table) you can hardly see where the passes overlap.
Same setup but showing the entire vice.
Same setup but showing the entire vice.
This second picture shows the entire vice, including the handle. When tightening the vice, I push down on the part against the parallels as I hand tighten the handle, and then I use a wooden mallet on the handle to make sure the vice is really tight. Cutting forces are high, so it is important to make sure that nothing can move. If you look carefully, you will see that the vice jaws are smooth with no grooves of any kind. Whenever I remove the vice, when I put it back, I always use a dial indicator in the spindle on the fixed jaw to make sure the vice is aligned with the ways to a thousandth of an inch over the 5" length of the jaw.
This picture shows all 4 axleboxes.
This picture shows all 4 axleboxes.
This picture shows all four of the partly finished axleboxes. I cut them from a piece of 1 1/2" dia. bronze bar stock that I had. The slices were 5/8" thick (you can see the center drill in one).

I used the lathe tool to cut a series of grooves at 5/8" spacing and then used a hacksaw to cut through the grooves while the lathe was running. I prefer this method to using a parting off tool (because the forces are less) and it gave slices that weren't wedge shaped. I first used a smaller parallel to flatten the sides of each part and then I used the pictured setup to "face" one side of each part. When doing this, its important to run all the pieces through the same setup one part at a time. It is just one of the many steps you need to take to make all the parts interchangeable. Since I have a 3 axis readout on the mill which is set to read to two tenths of a thou, it is easy to work to close tolerances. The readout can go to one micron (a thousandth of a millimeter) but the mill isn't that accurate.

Once they have all been brought to the 1/2" thickness, the next step is to align each part in the vice so it is flush with the side face and then locate the center of the axlebox in both X and Y directions. Next, lock the table and then use center drills and end mills to open out the hole and finally use an 11/16" dia. machine reamer to put the hole on size in each axlebox (I'm using 11/16" because that is the size I need to press in the needle bearing I'm using, otherwise the hole would be 1/2").

Next, without moving the table, run all the other axleboxes through the same setup so each one has a 11/16" reamed hole. After that, go through the steps to make all the axleboxes 1" square, then cut the 3/8" wide slots so each one will fit in the frame. They should slide easily and tip a bit, but they shouldn't rattle. I have measured the frame sides and on one side, both holes are .875" but on the other, the openings are .880" so I'll file the .875" openings to make them .880" like the other side. This way, all the axleboxes can be the same.
bottom view of the frame
bottom view of the frame
This picture shows an upside down view of the frame. You can also see the rear wheels in the top left corner of the picture. You can see that the workmanship on the frame is pretty good and the wheels are nice too.
side view of frame
side view of frame
Finally, this picture shows a side view of the frame.

This explanation and series of pictures shows how I approach a project. It is meant as a guide to learn from, it does not mean you have to follow it completely. It also shows that speed is not the most important factor, but while you may not have to do precision work all the time, it is important to be able to do so and you should learn and know how. For me, because of the equipment I have, it is just as easy to be precise all the time.

You will also need to be able to measure to 1/1000" of an inch, so you will need a zero to one inch micrometer as well as a 1" to 2" micrometer (they come in 1" increments). You will also need a 5" or 6" vernier caliper and a 6" dial caliper. These should all be new and of good quality. Most important, they should only be out of the case when they are actually being used to make a measurement. You will also need a dial indicator that shows .001" graduations. While not essential, sometimes it is handy to also have one that can read to .0001"

I hope this helps. Welcome to the club. Once you get into actually making a locomotive, a lot of your questions will be answered.

Richard Trounce.
shild
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by shild »

Richard, what is that worktable you have on the bottom? What are those pits in it? Also in that first pic, the allen key is for the boring bar?
Last edited by shild on Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
shild
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by shild »

I gave up on trying to get the keyway out of my R8 and put the mill/drill back together for now. Thinking about other things I need but still don't have. There have been countless times I could have used a head stop for the mills head. I found myself a piece of bar stock to use to make one. Only proper way to make it is to get an angled cutter to do the dovetail right? Also trying to pick out for myself a set of reamers, and a shorty keyless R8 chuck.
pete
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by pete »

It's not easy to find short bodied key less chucks. And a drill chuck that's decently accurate keyed or key less isn't that easy to find today. And there's no durable, accurate and cheap chucks that's for sure. But a key less including even the Albrecht's still can't hold every drill you might be using. There NOT designed nor meant to be used with reduced shank drills like the Silver & Deming type, or to drive larger taps due to there built in self tightening design. Use one of those with a large diameter drill or tap and they can self tighten to the point of the chuck seizing up or permanent deformation of the chucks internals. A good key less is great and I wouldn't want to be without mine. But they do have some not that well known limitations. With any S&D type drills I always drive those with a collet. Your mill has a bit lower HP so that limits what drill size can be used, but it's still something to be aware of.

Mine were bought almost 10 years ago so I just don't know how good they still are. But the three integral shank key less I bought from Glacern Machine Tools do compare pretty well for run out to the one Albrecht I have. If there still just as good I certainly wouldn't hesitate to buy more. I've heard but have never used one that the Golden Goose brand is supposed to be pretty good as well. Rohm would be another good one. No one on the Practical Machinist forums seems to be happy with what Jacobs are now producing.
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Re: This is my workbench now, what can I do to improve it?

Post by RET »

Hi shild,

I'm afraid my workspace tends to be cluttered, so some of what you see shouldn't really be there for the job I'm working on. The first 3 pictures show the mill vice; the first one is a close up just showing the cutter and the last partly machined axlebox. The second one shows the entire vice so I could show the vice handle. My mill is second hand (purchased at auction about 38 years ago) and I got the vice with it, so both are far from new. You can see that the vice has had a lot of use, but it is still accurate.

In the third picture, you can see a large Allen key which shouldn't really be there since it is left over from the last time I used the Bridgeport right angle attachment for the mill. In that third picture you can see the dovetail cutter I made a long time ago as well as the mandrel I made for the petticoat pipe for Jubilee. To use it, I took a short piece of 3/4" dia. copper tube, annealed one end with a torch and used the hydraulic press to force the tube down on the mandrel. Press a bit, anneal again and keep on doing that until you get the shape you want.

In the last two pictures, the parts are lying on a cluttered 10" table saw table. Also on the saw table is the drawing for part of the Jeannie Deans crank axle, the air side for the cross compound air compressor (which I'm still working on) a disassembled aluminum box (for salvage) and assorted tools.

I have several Jacobs chucks of various sizes, one or two of which were purchased new. I don't own an Albrecht chuck, I find I can get along quite well without one. I have lots of collets, mainly 2C and 5C. They are accurate enough for my purposes and I use them a lot.

Since these pictures were taken I have drilled and reamed the first axlebox and now I have to run the other three through the same process. Once that's done, I have to do the rest of the steps in the outline.

Maybe this will answer some of your questions.

Richard Trounce.
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