Tubes...leaking

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Bill Shields
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by Bill Shields »

Over time...using a tight brass brush can 'scratch' the ID of a tube...but then again...if the brush scratches can create a leak. Then the tube was well on the way to failure anyway.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
FKreider
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by FKreider »

If the boiler is old and the tubes are weak from corrosion you can actually puncture right through them with a brush/rod.
-Frank K.
Mike Walsh
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by Mike Walsh »

Yes... Take your boiler, fill it with water, and then try to find the source of your leak. I don't know how small your boiler is, but if the leak is in a tube, you may want to use a scope to fish through your leaky tube to find the problem.

WFP 535 got new flues when someone decided to get a little aggressive with a flue brush and decided to whale on it with a hammer when the brush wouldn't punch the full length of the flue. Turns out there may have been a collapsed flue and they decided to, well, punch through the flue. At the time, the flues were copper. The copper flues were pulled and steel flues installed to complete the repairs. Using a bore scope will help you understand the problem and move forward.

Do not rush to take a welder/torch to your boiler. Make sure you fully understand the problem before you try to develop a plan.
Marty_Knox
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by Marty_Knox »

Emfinger wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:26 pm
Marty_Knox wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:06 pm Before you do anything else fill the boiler with water and let it sit overnight.
Why?
As much to stop and check this methodically as anything. Did you have water in it when you punched the tubes?
Or did you put water in after and it leaked out? Or did you hydro it?
James Powell
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by James Powell »

So, as I'm a retired flood instructor, I might as well start with the definition of leak vs flood: you find a leak, a flood finds YOU !

Leaky tubes- you brushed them/"punched" them, and now at least one tube is leaking. What are the tubes made of ? Steel or Copper? Did you drive the brush through the side of one of the tubes ? (assuming that you did it, not your ham handed 12 year old...that would have been me, 30 years ago...). Generally, if you put a brush through the side of a tube, you will feel it.

If the leak is at an end, then retightening is a option. Roll if possible- certainly roll rather than taper if steel tubes. What I did on 5611KH was to make up a 2 degree taper, then pull that into the tubes that were leaking until I got about 10% more expansion on the tubes. That has (so far) sealed them enough for me to be happy with the result, but I am very much aware that at some point, I will have to re-tube.

Imagetubes cropped by Peach James, on Flickr

Realizing that this is in a traction engine boiler, and that the tubes have probably walked due to the differences of forces acting on the boiler over time- in other words, there wasn't enough bead created when the tubes were originally rolled into the boiler, to hold them in position.

So, yes, take a deep couple of breaths, engage your boiler inspector, and think before you act :)
Emfinger
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by Emfinger »

jkimberln wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:52 pm You have to give us some more details. Is this a copper or steel boiler? What are the tubes made of and what ID/OD? How are the tubes held in the boiler - rolled, welded, brazed? How many tubes?

If you want to repair the boiler, assuming it can be done, you will have to take it off the chassis so you can work on it easily. You also need to look inside the boiler to see if it is worth repairing. Check the mud ring for junk. Check the stays to see if they are eroded away too far and need replacing as well. I'd guess we need even more details but this is a start.
Sorry for lack of info...I'm still sick over this. Both the boiler and tubes are steel. The tubes seem to be 5/8" ID.
What would be the tube thickness?
The fire box can't be removed from the boiler. I can't even put my hand thru the door hole.
Emfinger
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by Emfinger »

Bill Shields wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:07 pm Depends on where the leak is.

This is why fill with water and wait and see if the water is running out the ID of the tube or around the sheet.

Doubtful that an ID cleaning with a brush will open a leak between tubes and sheet that can be fixed with rolling..but time will tell.

As previously asked..copper or steel tubes?
steel
pat1027
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by pat1027 »

It is unfortunate but quit the live steam hobby...certainly not. We brushed 3/4" K type copper flues with a stainless shotgun brush at the end of each day. One pass down and back by hand. After 12 years corrosion lead to a crack in one of the firebox side sheets but the tubes were fine. The second boiler has been on the locomotive for 15 years. Still brushing the flues with a stainless brush and they are fine. With a different cleaning regimen the firebox is in great shape too. I really doubt brushing them was the root cause.

It's disappointing for sure. But once you get a look and see where the leak is you'll have a better idea what you need to do. Guaranteed lots of folks in this group have been in the same boat and can pass along their experiences.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by Bill Shields »

Steel tubes...even with the utmost care... have a finite life

It is a part of the hobby. If one tube is leaking others are sure to follow.

I have a boiler in my basement that made it almost 50 years before it gave up the ghost. Broke the owners heart to have to rebuild it since it had been built by his father....but the loco is back up and running..better than new.

A steam locos are an exercise in continuous maintenance.

What you need to do FIRST is determine where the leak is...around the tube at the end or through a tube wall.

what comes next is determined by this branch of the logic tree.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
Emfinger
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by Emfinger »

Bill Shields wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:04 pm Steel tubes...even with the utmost care... have a finite life

It is a part of the hobby. If one tube is leaking others are sure to follow.

I have a boiler in my basement that made it almost 50 years before it gave up the ghost. Broke the owners heart to have to rebuild it since it had been built by his father....but the loco is back up and running..better than new.

A steam locos are an exercise in continuous maintenance.

What you need to do FIRST is determine where the leak is...around the tube at the end or through a tube wall.

what comes next is determined by this branch of the logic tree.
OMG "exercise in continuous maintenance" so true. I was told that for every hour run time = 2 hours maintenance and another guy said not true. Well I have been at this cense Aug 17, 2019 and still don't have one hour of run time.

My new problem is that nothing can be done from the firebox end. I need a rolling tool that can be used from the smoke box to roll tubes in the firebox.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by Bill Shields »

Are you sure that rolling will correct the problem? I repeat the question . IS THE LEAK THROUGH THE WALL OF THE TUBE OR AROUND THE END OF THE TUBE,??????

If the leak is through the tube wall. Rolling is a waste of time.

Many firebox end ltube sheet eaks are rolled through the grate area using a roller on a universal joint.

Yes...this most often requires removal of the boiler
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
Mike Walsh
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Re: Tubes...leaking

Post by Mike Walsh »

What Bill said... Have you verified where the source of the leak is? There is no point in rolling tubes if you do not know where the leak is.

Your posts are very vague and some might consider it "vaguebooking", to borrow a term from the #1 social media website. If you are just venting, then say so.. But if you are asking for help, you need to provide ALL of the information needed for those who want to help you, and then some.
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