Anodes or not, Boiler treatment or not

[tlduncan]

My uncle and I are building an Allen Mogul that is very near completion. It has a steel boiler with copper flues. I'm interested in gathering opinions on the benefits of using or not using anodes, as well as the benefits of using or not using a boiler treatment like LSB 8000.

Thanks,
Tom Duncan

[ccvstmr]

Tom,
1) Anodes: You didn't say what kind of anode you were thinking of using. I believe Tom Patton wrote an article for either Live Steam or Modeltec about using anodes in his Michigan Midland boiler. He might have used magnesium, but I'm not sure. His argument was that it was easier (and cheaper) to replace an anode the "erodes" as a result of galvanic action as opposed to replacing flues, or worse yet, the entire boiler.

2) Boiler Water Treatment: I'd have to say that the number of live steamers using the LSB8000 is increasing. For more info, check out the Terlyn Industries website at www.terlyn.com. Follow the links to the LSB8000 product. Terlyn has several kinds of boiler water treatment programs depending on the type of boiler in question. The LSB8000 was designed specifically for model boilers. The website has some excellent info regarding what goes on inside a boiler. You'll also see Tom's loco in the LSB info link.

I don't have an anode in my boiler, but I do use the LSB boiler water treatment. It's hard to tell if the boiler steams better with or without the boiler water treatment, but it does "clean up" the inside of the boiler and it reduces sediment buildup (keeps solids in suspension until blow down). You DON'T want solids to build up in the firebox water legs!

Like anything else, how much do you want to spend to protect your investment? These are small prices to pay to insure the longevity of (1) critical element of your steam loco...the boiler. Then again, if using these products extends the life of your boiler 1 or 2 years...how would you know? I don't believe any of us are sure how long a boiler will last. It will last indefinitely if you don't use it...but then its no fun watching a beautiful machine sit around and collect dust. Hope this helps. cb

[Greg_Lewis]

I have no personal experience with either boiler treatment or anodes. Having said that, here's what I have found through asking questions of people who are supposed to know:

Water: The experts I have talked to say you have to analyze the water you will use and treat for what you find therein. They are skeptical of a one-size-fits-all solution. That notwithstanding there seems to be strong anecdotal evidence that the Terlyn product works. I would like to see a controlled experiment done. The Terlyn website does not list an MSDS for the LSB 4000 or 8000, but the one for their other boiler product lists it as a corrosive with a ph of 1.5. It does not seem likely that the LSB products would be that strong. Terlyn makes a wide range of water treatment products and therefore should know what they are doing.

Anodes: After reading the articles in Live Steam, I was curious that McMaster Carr did not list magnesium anodes while they did list zinc. The articles stated that the zinc anodes in the author's boiler disappeared quickly, while the magnesium ones did not. This did not seem to add up. If magnesium anodes were superior to zinc, why did McMaster not offer them. I called Bay City Boiler in San Francisco and spoke to one of their engineers (design, not operating). He said that boiler deterioration occurs in two ways: corrosion and electrolysis. He said that magnesium is more useful for electrolytic actions and zinc for corrosive ones. He further said that satationary boilers are likely to suffer more from electrolytic actions since they may be part of an electrical ground when water pipes are used for grounding, but that locomotives, even with grounded electrical systems, would not, and that a zinc anode should provide proper protection. He also stated that zinc is usually what is found in common water heaters, which seems odd considering his previous statement, since home water systems are frequently used to ground the electrical wiring. When I explained the problem the Live Steam author was having, he said a zinc anode should not disappear as fast as it did in the author's boiler, and that something out of the ordinary was going on.

I put a zinc anode in my boiler because it was only about $5 from McMaster and was easy to do. I haven't steamed it yet so I have no idea of what will happen. Considering the cost of a boiler, I'll probably run the LSB as well, since it certainly does no harm.

Craig C: If you're out there, perhaps you could share some of your experience on this.

[franco]

Boiler water treatment: In "Farm Engines and How to Run Them" - (undated, about 1907 page 62, and mostly referring to traction engines), they state "An old engineer says his advice is to use no compound at all, but to put a hat full of potatoes in the boiler every morning". Any takers? franco.

[Karl_Losely]

Unfortunately, that engineer you talked with had his hat up his rear a bit. Magnesium anodes are used in hot water heaters, not zinc. According to Tom's article and his conversation with a Michigan boiler inspector, zinc anodes are used for corrosion protection on ships, and I know that zinc anodes are used to reduce corrosion on things like tanks and pipelines installed in the ground.

I have installed a magnesieum anode in my locomotive boiler, although I have not yet steamed it either. I purchased mine from the local Home Depot. It was 3' in length and cost about $27 IIRC.

Karl

[cbrew]

Karl and All,

I have two magnesium anodes in my boiler,
It has about 40 hours under steam as I was testing and timing the engine (and having a little run [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img]). And the anodes are a now a shade of white and look to be "wearing" very nicely.
I believe the will last threw this season also [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/confused.gif"%20alt="[/img]
I have not measured them yet but I can this weekend if anyone would like the results, [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/smirk.gif"%20alt="[/img]
Chris

[dampfwilli]

We had last year a thread with the same problems and many old
advices. Better as the potatoes are cowfeets or oxtails for in the boiler ( in a fine net). And the big advantage: After a long running day you have a soup in your boiler [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/laugh.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/laugh.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/laugh.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/laugh.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/laugh.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/laugh.gif"%20alt="[/img]

[corlissbs]

Last year, I ran one magnesium anode in my locomotive boiler. It disappeared so fast that i put a second one in a firebox plug. The rod was 1/4" diameter and about 3" long. Three days of running ate the rod up completly. I bought mine from RR Supply. they are supplied mounted to 1/8" pipe plugs. I added the second rod late enough in the season that I have not seen if it prolonged the life of the annodes.

My question is if we should be treating the PH of the water that we put in our boilers.

Brad Smith

[UnkaJesse]

Brad, I have a Ph meter that fits in my pocket. I try to keep the Ph around 10 and not over 11. Any higher and you have serious foaming problems. I also have a dissolved solids meter from the same company. These meters are 3/8" thick, 1" wide and about 4-1/2" long. Work great, but they are mostly for industrial boiler testing. Boiler chemical salesman gave me my two meters. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/laugh.gif"%20alt="[/img]

Unka(tests all his water) Jesse