The Direction of our Hobby?

[Doug E.]

Jon,

I'm curious what offense you took to anyone's post on diesal models. I am unable
to find a post on this tread that puts them down. Fred's post just listed numbers
attending with out any other comment. Could you be a bit sensitive to this topic
and be reading something in a post that is not there?

I do happen to be one that has no interest in the non steam models. I personally
like recip. steam in what ever form it comes in, boat, traction, stationary,etc.
However If someone comes up with a diesal model complete with a straight 6, 8,
or Vee 16 I will guaruntee I will give it a close look over.

Your comment on Riverside appears to be made in a negative way. I had a chance
to drop in on a work party in 98. I was impressed with the people I met to the point
I joined, even though I am over 1200 miles away. My experiences with Riverside
have been nothing but positive. From what I have seen, this club is one of the most
with it clubs I have seen in a long time, and they manage it all with steam.

Doug E.

[Al_Messer]

"...idle CNC machinery..." That's a very good idea! Wish I had the means and knowledge to start a venture like that. I have a friend that is in that position but I don't know if he would be interested as it is a field of very narrow sales and after all, that's the bottom line when you're machining for a living.

[Allen_from_CHT]

In round numbers? The Shay is $24K the Mountain is $38K About the only OS loco less that $4K is the 0-2-2 Stephenson's Rocket (remember these are microfinished highly detailed bolt together kits)

[JohnHudak]

Hollihan, I never said that I thought diesel owners were second class citizens, I merely said that I didn't care for diesels. There ARE a lot of people at my club with diesels that do a lot of work! Also the numbers that Fred quoted are an indication that large scale railroading is growing, but the whole point of my first post was that I wasn't seeing many new steamers being built vs diesels, and I wondered if our hobby will go the way the prototypes did, more and more diesels and less and less steam. 30 years from now when someone brings a live steam locomotive out to the track, will we all gather around it and gawk at it? The way we all do when one of the real ones pulls an excursion out on the mainline somewhere? John

[Allen_from_CHT]

Yes thats my price on the shay - To arrive at it I split the difference between suggested retail and wholesale - the suggested list price is $22,750.00 kit, and $26,360.00 RTR The suggested retail on the mountain is $37,259.00 and $43,175.00

The real "ouch" of the OS line is their 4" scale, 7-1/2" gauge 2-4-0 Hinkley with a suggested retail of a bit over $106K RTR, I still don't sell any at $93K

On the up side, those prices haven't changed in 5 years.


Maxitrack's prices have increased by about 15% in the last 3 years or so. but their steam locos are still mostly in the $5K to $15K range.

[Bruce_Mowbray]

My $.02,
The hobby is heading towards the diesel phase because of a few reasons. It takes a lot more free time to build a steam locomotive than a diesel. Steam locomotives are costly. And, The majority of the current population is intimidated by a complicated project like a steam locomotive. Fortunately there are a few who don't let these things stand in the way and steam should survive a while longer. I am a steam guy but I don't have a problem with dieselers. I am building a little gas powered locomotive myself. (I even joined a diesel e-mail group). The diesel hobbiests are in it for the same reason as the steam folk. They want to have fun running/building trains. If they can get their dose of fun by running a diesel, all the power to them. The dieselers work just as hard at maintaining track and grounds as the steamers, they haul passengers when needed and they are just as friendly to the general public. By building a diesel, some may feel it is a first step to building a steam locomotive. They use it as a learning experience and to build confidence with regards to machine work and mechanical objects. Some may stop at building their diesel and go the route of adding lots of details to it. Others will build a steam locomotive and they may sell their diesel to a newcomer to the hobby who dosen't have the time to build one of their own. This adds to the number of diesels appearing at our tracks. And, like I mentioned before, diesels take less time to build. Statistically, that means more diesel locomotives. I think there will always be steam around. Just not as many compared to the number of diesel locomotives.
As for free CNC's making model parts. There are a lot of shops out there with idle CNC machines. The trouble is, the profit made from making models parts is not big enough for the average commercial machine shop to warrent making model train parts. This is due to the low quantities of the parts that are ordered. CNC machines are economical for high quantities where an opererator can load the parts and push the start button. As soon as you have to change setups or tooling more often, the need for more experienced help raises the end cost of the parts.

[gwrdriver]

This is a very complex subject so I can only hit a few points. I can't remember a time when folks didn't grouse about the hobby dying out but here's what it looks like from my part of the world. Some of it depends upon individual situation and location and clubs have personalities. My own club, the Mid-South Live Steamers, of which I am a founding member, has grown from six members and 300ft of track to almost 300 members and two miles in a period of 35 years, with most of the growth taking place in the last ten. What is declining, our thread subject, are steam locomotive builders.

The MSLS is now predominantly a club of diesels and there are reasons for this; being on public lands the MSLS has a contractual obligation to haul the public. While certainly it's not official policy, locomotives which can pull great loads, continuously, with few "pit" stops, on open run and public hauling days, are looked upon kindly. Those that can't are considered by some (wrongly) to be track-clogging nuisances. So over the years we have evolved into a club whose principle knowledge and abilities, of necessity, now lie in how to build and maintain track, build gas-hydraulic locos, and how to haul great numbers of visitors on open days.

Being track-focused as they are, the MSLS has had a tendency to sentence newcomers, especially healthy young ones, to 20 years at hard labor on the ballast trains, without parole. The policy was, and still is, do your time, and maybe we'll let you run a locomotive, or visit the workshop, but in the meantime we'll treat you like a moron, if we acknowledge you exist at all. This assures that people will be run off in droves. I was fortunate to be taken in and mentored by the two most capable model engineers ever to live in my area. What I learned from them profoundly shaped my approach to the hobby and I, in turn, have mentored three, one entirely by mail. This to me is the way it will survive. Not by recruiting the masses, we really don't want the masses, but by individuals who find and help other individuals who are capable and who want to learn and participate.

I regularly hear that scrapping school shop programs is a cause but I don't think this has anything to do with the current level of interest in building steam. It may certainly affect those who look to a trade school to provide them with workshop facilities, but we aren't looking for "machinists," we are looking for people who want to build things with their hands. Learning machine work is only one part of the overall process. Of the 300 members of our club maybe 5% of them ever made a wage using a power tool but many are proficient in the workshop. On the other hand, on a per capita basis, the ranks of the machinist trade in the US produce very few model engineers or live steamers. I've never seen the two as being a cause and effect.

So what's to become of us? I heard this same question being groused and moaned about in 1965. Every generation has its "What is it with kids these days!" What never seems to be mentioned or addressed in these discussions of "Oh Woe What's to Become of Us" is the intangible but crucial quality of "DESIRE". If one doesn't have a burning DESIRE to see the wheels go round, no amount of school shops or PR or free t-shirts or anything else is going to bring them in to stay - Period. However if there is enough DESIRE, no amount of insult, injury, indifference, difficulties, costs, or lack of facilities, or never having seen steam on the railroads will prevent them from cutting metal. They will find a way. The fate of the hobby rests solely on desire. When the desire dies so will the hobby.

[willy]

I have a friend that is in that position but I don't know if he would be interested as it is a field of very narrow sales

is that the "skinny" of it?

-willy- [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img]

[ccvstmr]

GWRdriver,
I think you "hit the nail on the head"...DESIRE...is what this hobby is all about. Where there is a will, there's a way! The ones that succeed will be the ones (sometimes with a thick skin) that will pay their dues, due the dirty work, hurl a couple tons of ballast, etc, all for the enjoyment of a neat and interesting hobby that is full of neat and some very interesting people. Sometimes, it's not what you know...it's who you know. Ask questions...get answers. Don't ask questions...don't learn anything. Personal time may be at a premium these days with all the other responsibilities we face, but the modeler that wants something bad enough, will continue to work towards that goal no matter who or what stands in the way.

Another interesting aspect about the steam locos is that very few seem to end up in the "grave yard". So, while the number of NEW steam locomotives might be declining, the OLD ones don't seem to die either. These machines are purchased, cleaned, repaired, maybe even improved on...just to breath new life into them and get them back on the rails.

For those that have never had an opportunity to run a steam loco...find someone that does have a steam loco and get to know them. Ask how the machine works and what makes it tick. You might be surprised when you're asked if you would like to learn how to run that steamer. Don't be scared...yes there are things you need to be aware of AT ALL TIMES, but it's not impossible. A steam loco is truly a machine that responds to both track conditions and the actions of the engineer. Learning the skill to run a steam loco is no different than learning other skills. Practice, practice and more practice. And then, conditions will change and you'll have to practice more.

To give up learning...you might as well give up life. There's always something to learn. May the sun shine and dry the rails for maximum tractive effort so you can hear that steamer "bark" up the hill. What a blast!!! cb

[Patrik]

Have you ever sold a Hinkley???

[Alan Stepney]

Over this side of the pond, it seems that the majority still prefer steam. Perhaps this reflects the large number of preserved railways, most of which are mainly steam, so that virtually everyone, irrespective of age, sees and rides behind steam locomotives.

I was at my local ME club yesterday and there was one diesel, and 5 steam loco's running, and I suspect that this is fairly typical.

Alan Stepney

web page

[Allen_from_CHT]

I think I heard that only 3 have ever been sold worldwide, 2 to a single public venue in Japan.

I think they would have to be about 1/3 the price before anyone but zoos or amusement parks would even consider them.