I have machined both 4140 and 4140-HT for axles that had inner races (sleeves) put on them for use with needle and roller bearings. 4140-HT is pre-heat treated to around 28 to 32 Rc at the mill, but that still isn't hard enough for the bearing's rollers to ride directly against. 4140-HT is also a good material to make valve motion pins (also crankpins) out of if you don't want to go to the trouble of hardening/heat treating annealed stock.
Now, if you want to get really funky, use 52100 (bearing steel) for the axles. Heat treat, grind them and forget about having to use the inner races... The axle itself will be it's own inner race. But, 52100 ain't gonna be cheap!
Until it was dropped from the product line, if you had attended a meet where SuperScale had a display set up you would have seen the Stainless Steel engine/pilot truck for their USRA (2-8-2) "Mikado" project. I machined and super-detailed that truck for Barry to use as a display piece around 1984-85. The material I used for that truck's axle was 1144 "StressProof" steel. But, that truck used a journal box and cellar of investment-cast silicon bronze. No separate bearing... the bearing was the journal box casting itself. StressProof steel is strong and also has excellent machining qualities. It can be suitably used with inner races as well.
With regards to Loctite: On axles (and crankpins), I would only use it to augment, and not to replace a press fit.
Living Legend
Under size axil stock, shuld I repalce or Loctite?
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LivingLegend
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Last edited by LivingLegend on Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:21 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Dick_Morris
- Posts: 2848
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I'd probably make new axles. It would be easier to get the center holes axial to the O.D. if you start with oversized material and turn it to size between centers.
My second option would be to cut keyways on the existing axle and Loctite. If you do that you will probably want to slightly reduce part of the axle so that your clearance is big enough for the gap specified by Loctite .
By the time you make the existing axles work you'll probably have more time invested than if you made new axles. (If you tend to be anal about some things, like I am, it will forever bother your that you didn't press them on.)
My CP-173 called for stressproff steel and I dutifully used it. On my Consolidation I got a 3' length of CRS shafting from my local bearing house.
Personally, I'd rather press a wheel to a shoulder, but there's probably no real need for it.
My second option would be to cut keyways on the existing axle and Loctite. If you do that you will probably want to slightly reduce part of the axle so that your clearance is big enough for the gap specified by Loctite .
By the time you make the existing axles work you'll probably have more time invested than if you made new axles. (If you tend to be anal about some things, like I am, it will forever bother your that you didn't press them on.)
My CP-173 called for stressproff steel and I dutifully used it. On my Consolidation I got a 3' length of CRS shafting from my local bearing house.
Personally, I'd rather press a wheel to a shoulder, but there's probably no real need for it.
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Bill Shields
Loctite
I loctite all my wheels on..have for years and never had any problems..even without keys.
Please DON"T knurl the axles...not a good idea.
For the loading that we do on our engines, aluminum axles would be OK, so the materials of construction isn't all that major a problem..just be careful of hardened axles with sharp corners....
Please DON"T knurl the axles...not a good idea.
For the loading that we do on our engines, aluminum axles would be OK, so the materials of construction isn't all that major a problem..just be careful of hardened axles with sharp corners....
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10 Wheeler Rob
- Posts: 1546
- Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:44 pm
- Location: East Hartford, CT
Re use of Loctite and matrial sugestions
Hey guys, I read a lot of the previous threads on Loctite, and relize there is a lot fo diverse opinion about using and not using it.
Hers my situatuion, I have already keyed the wheel bores using a fixture that aligned and them exactly the smae, even went so far as to cut 3 form front side and 3 form back side to make shure they are perfectlly quarterd. So there wil be a 1/4 inch key reguardles of weather I Loctite or not. The key will be thight on the sides and not tight radially as to not draw the wheels off center.
I read the Loctite 609 data sheet and it says you can use it with press fits as well as losse fits. But with press fits is says to press assemble quickly because it will set up quickly in thin gap.
I set up the fist axil in the lathe last night and center drilled the ends and wih no claen up other then light emery clean up I will have about line on line to 1/2 mil thight fit, i.e. the parts mike to be near line on line, but no way can you put them together with out a pressing. The axle micced at .9985 but has not been turnned , so its not peferctly round (it apears to be cold roled steel)
I micced the runout on the lathe centers, and it was 1/2 to 3/4 of a mill total at the the shft ends and and a little more in the center. So I am not shrue i will be happy with it, and the other 2 might be worse. I really wanted the axles turnedd on centers so it would run as true a possilbe, so this leeds me to buying material and not screwing aorund with the crap I got with the kit.
This needle bearing sleeves would be loctited with aproxiamtly 1 mil radial gap and wheels would be loctited with near 0 gap. i woryy that the bearring sleves mighth not cnter up, but have heard that loctie will cnter up in there recomed gap range if the patrs are not clamped or fixtured off enter.
I notcied some of the good machining steel grade 12L14 material on eBay at reaonable price, so I may buy it, about $30 for 3 peices longer then I need, so may get some of that.
Hey thanks for the sugestion on the machiable hardend grade for the vlave gear and crank pins, sounds liek a good one.
Hers my situatuion, I have already keyed the wheel bores using a fixture that aligned and them exactly the smae, even went so far as to cut 3 form front side and 3 form back side to make shure they are perfectlly quarterd. So there wil be a 1/4 inch key reguardles of weather I Loctite or not. The key will be thight on the sides and not tight radially as to not draw the wheels off center.
I read the Loctite 609 data sheet and it says you can use it with press fits as well as losse fits. But with press fits is says to press assemble quickly because it will set up quickly in thin gap.
I set up the fist axil in the lathe last night and center drilled the ends and wih no claen up other then light emery clean up I will have about line on line to 1/2 mil thight fit, i.e. the parts mike to be near line on line, but no way can you put them together with out a pressing. The axle micced at .9985 but has not been turnned , so its not peferctly round (it apears to be cold roled steel)
I micced the runout on the lathe centers, and it was 1/2 to 3/4 of a mill total at the the shft ends and and a little more in the center. So I am not shrue i will be happy with it, and the other 2 might be worse. I really wanted the axles turnedd on centers so it would run as true a possilbe, so this leeds me to buying material and not screwing aorund with the crap I got with the kit.
This needle bearing sleeves would be loctited with aproxiamtly 1 mil radial gap and wheels would be loctited with near 0 gap. i woryy that the bearring sleves mighth not cnter up, but have heard that loctie will cnter up in there recomed gap range if the patrs are not clamped or fixtured off enter.
I notcied some of the good machining steel grade 12L14 material on eBay at reaonable price, so I may buy it, about $30 for 3 peices longer then I need, so may get some of that.
Hey thanks for the sugestion on the machiable hardend grade for the vlave gear and crank pins, sounds liek a good one.
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Bill Shields
Loctite
Please, do NOT use 609 on a press fit..it MUST be loose or it will not hold properly...you must have a gap for it to 'expand' into.
Based on my experience, the gap that you will have will be a bit on the smallish side...I like to see it about 0.002" / side.
Don't worry about the stuff 'centering up'...I have never had a problem.
Based on my experience, the gap that you will have will be a bit on the smallish side...I like to see it about 0.002" / side.
Don't worry about the stuff 'centering up'...I have never had a problem.
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LivingLegend
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- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:55 pm
- Location: The Boonies of Alabama
Attn: 10 Wheeler Rob
I don't know what size/type roller bearing you're using... A drawn cup needle or a heavy-duty (non-drawn) needle/roller bearing.
For your referance, per the Torrington catalog data sheets, here are the tolerences on Torrington's 1.000-i.d. inner races:
Race for Drawn Cup Needle Bearing (ref: 1.250-i.d. bearing):
Inner Race (1.000 bore dia.): 1.000-max./.9995-min. i.d.
Shaft dia. (Loose Fit): .9997-max/.9992-min o.d. /// (Tight Fit): 1.0001-max/.9996-min o.d.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Race for Heavy-Duty Roller/Needle Bearing (ref: 1.250-i.d. bearing - solid & ground bearing outer race):
Inner Race (1.000 bore dia.): 1.000-max./.9995-min. i.d.
Shaft dia. (Loose Fit): .9997-max/.9992-min o.d. /// (Tight Fit): 1.0007-max/1.0003-min o.d.
The above tolerances are for direct fits only and don't allow for Loctite'd loose/slip fits.
Also, bear in mind the dia. tolerance of low-carbon CRS rounds can be as much as -.002 (and as much as -.003 on medium-carbon) under the nominal 1.000 CRS round dia..
LivingLegend
I don't know what size/type roller bearing you're using... A drawn cup needle or a heavy-duty (non-drawn) needle/roller bearing.
For your referance, per the Torrington catalog data sheets, here are the tolerences on Torrington's 1.000-i.d. inner races:
Race for Drawn Cup Needle Bearing (ref: 1.250-i.d. bearing):
Inner Race (1.000 bore dia.): 1.000-max./.9995-min. i.d.
Shaft dia. (Loose Fit): .9997-max/.9992-min o.d. /// (Tight Fit): 1.0001-max/.9996-min o.d.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Race for Heavy-Duty Roller/Needle Bearing (ref: 1.250-i.d. bearing - solid & ground bearing outer race):
Inner Race (1.000 bore dia.): 1.000-max./.9995-min. i.d.
Shaft dia. (Loose Fit): .9997-max/.9992-min o.d. /// (Tight Fit): 1.0007-max/1.0003-min o.d.
The above tolerances are for direct fits only and don't allow for Loctite'd loose/slip fits.
Also, bear in mind the dia. tolerance of low-carbon CRS rounds can be as much as -.002 (and as much as -.003 on medium-carbon) under the nominal 1.000 CRS round dia..
LivingLegend
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Bill Shields
Loctite Races
I wouldn't worry about the manufacturer's blurb on that too much.
I have been loctiting needle bearing races on shafs for years and not had a problem...so if it comes to that, I wouldn't worry about what the mfg'rs recommendations say...my experience says it will be OK...
It's not like we are heavily loading these things...biggest enemy is dirt..
I have been loctiting needle bearing races on shafs for years and not had a problem...so if it comes to that, I wouldn't worry about what the mfg'rs recommendations say...my experience says it will be OK...
It's not like we are heavily loading these things...biggest enemy is dirt..
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10 Wheeler Rob
- Posts: 1546
- Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:44 pm
- Location: East Hartford, CT
RE: Beariing fit & axil material.
That sounds just like What I have for bearrings. Its a sheet metal coverd neddles and an inner race thats 1" ID. I will make the races tight by a couple of tents and all should be well.
I can buy 1 1/8" dia. 4132 rod that is the heatreted but still machinalbe rod, 36" only a couple miles up the road form me for $35. A couple of guys at the rail club who have the same cat wheels as my loco recently each had a wheel comie loose this spring, they were on cold rooled shafts. So I decided to by good stuff and not wory about it, its only about $15 more then cold rolled stock. I can make all my crank pins from the left over stock also I think.
thanks for help guys, Rob
I can buy 1 1/8" dia. 4132 rod that is the heatreted but still machinalbe rod, 36" only a couple miles up the road form me for $35. A couple of guys at the rail club who have the same cat wheels as my loco recently each had a wheel comie loose this spring, they were on cold rooled shafts. So I decided to by good stuff and not wory about it, its only about $15 more then cold rolled stock. I can make all my crank pins from the left over stock also I think.
thanks for help guys, Rob
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Bill Shields
Loose Wheels
I wouldn't be so quick to blame loose wheels on CRS.
More like a bad fit...irrespective of the materials.
More like a bad fit...irrespective of the materials.
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Dan Willey
- Posts: 485
- Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:44 pm
- Location: North Carolina, USA
I agree with Trainman4602... make new axles for a proper press fit.
I just looked on eBay and found a metal seller that has 1 3/16 dia 1018 CRS for $4.02 a foot. Order 3 feet of stock from this guy and be done with it.
See--> http://cgi.ebay.com/1018-COLD-ROLLED-RO ... dZViewItem
Dan
I just looked on eBay and found a metal seller that has 1 3/16 dia 1018 CRS for $4.02 a foot. Order 3 feet of stock from this guy and be done with it.
See--> http://cgi.ebay.com/1018-COLD-ROLLED-RO ... dZViewItem
Dan
Hey there Rob..
The right steel for your axles is SAE#1045..T.G.&P.
The stock that I have on hand IS exact 1.0003"..
I can send you a what you need ...how long of a bar or tell me if you need it cut ...how many.. how long.. inches +PLUS..
I'll be machining axles for L.E. in Cal. and be shipping this week..
What engine are you building?
Regards
Robbie
The right steel for your axles is SAE#1045..T.G.&P.
The stock that I have on hand IS exact 1.0003"..
I can send you a what you need ...how long of a bar or tell me if you need it cut ...how many.. how long.. inches +PLUS..
I'll be machining axles for L.E. in Cal. and be shipping this week..
What engine are you building?
Regards
Robbie