Narrow Gauge Prototype - "Original Builders Drawings&qu

[Loco112]

I want to discuss what "Original Builders Drawings" you men have in your collections for 3' Gauge Prototypes.

When I say "Original Builders Drawings", I mean the original manufacturer’s drawings that were used to build the locomotive, rollingstock, parts and appliances when they were new. In this topic, I am only interested in talking about appliances and parts that were used on the 3' gauge. What I am not wanting to talk about here is a single assembly drawing or a sort of drawing made by this or that guy, but I mean a drawing for every single part with a Baldwin or WABCO drawing number also on the page. Now, lets proceed.

I do not want to discuss where drawing sets are located, (we might get to that later in this topic) for now just the sets you have in your hands.
I have the following sets;

Baldwin D&RGW K-36 & K37 set

All the 1942 Mysore #10 and the 1948 Baldwin 2' gauge 2-8-2 drawings that were for the Indian Railways Mysore/Scindia locomotives.

WABCO 8 1/2" x150 Cross Compound steam driven air compressor drawings, about 100 of them.

WABCO AD super governor (controls air-pump output)

All the parts and assembly drawings for the D&RGW wooden rollingstock and their castings (got all of Maxwell’s and a few from ASF and NACO)

Most all the C&S 1908 Bettendorf steel underframe drawings.

That’s about it for sets, I do have many other single parts drawings, but not any more whole sets.

Now lets here what you other NG guys have.

[Loco112]

Well it seems you guys don't have much in the way of real drawings. To get this moving lets include original builders drawing sets that you know exist and that you know who has them and that they are absolutely positively available at some cost less than the national debt, or if they are not available list them and then note that. .

I also have the entire Miner draft gear parts archive for every NG car ever made, and I have a set of SR&RL #23 2-6-2 drawing from the "Two Foot Cyclopedia" published by Bill Jenson, and it has mistakes in it because they copied and then traced over the original Baldwin drawings to make this booklet and they miss-copied quite a few of the dimensions! That is a good example of why you never use a drawings unless the only author on the page is a guy named; Baldwin ALCO, Westinghouse or the owner railroad co.

Oh, John Maxwell, the preservationist extraordinaire, he made lots of mistakes, but he was documenting parts and cars that no drawings existed for, so I can forgive him.

OK, what do you know exists? I'll start,

I know where all the D&RGW everything is.

I know where another set of C-18, K-27, K-36 & K-37 drawings are.

I know where all the EBT drawings are, but they are not touchable.

I know where most of the 1930's to the 1956 Baldwin drawings are, and some of the earlier Baldwin drawings.

I know where all the WABCO drawing are for any brake component except the steam driven air compressors, but I have the 8 +1/2" CC pump, and I know another collector that has the single 9 1/2" pump drawings so we have everything covered.

Coupler drawings, the big mystery. You know why? The AAR destroys old coupler drawings and no one outside of the few companies allowed to produce couplers is allowed to won a set of drawings.
I know who has a set of AAR Type "E" drawings, but they are hideous on NG equipment. Anyone have; Sharon Tower or Climax coupler drawings?

There is a Porter archive and a Davenport archive. I have the D&RGW #50 Davenport drawing set. .

What else do you guys know absolutely exists? You can keep your sources secret but be accurate with your comments. Loco112

[LivingLegend]

Loco112:

I only started to go full bore into Narrow Gauge a relatively short time ago, but have had a passing interest in it for years. I decided to move from standard gauge and stop development of those projects and build a 2.5" scale K36 because the terrain of the 25-acre tract where I plan to locate and build my track is more suited to narrow gauge. My forte was researching standard gauge, so I only know of a few sources of narrow gauge data... mainly of those few NG loco's of interest to me.

The California State RR Museum in Sacramento has drawings that apply to the North Pacific Coast #12 "Sonoma" (4-4-0) that's on display at there. When the CSRRM was in the process of restoring the engine they also made a few drawings of their own based upon the measurements taken from from a several parts and assemblies.

The DeGolyer Library at SMU has the erecting drawing (and a few engine and tender parts drawings) for the Nevada, California and Oregon #14 (later became Nevada County Narrow Gauge #9.) I paid DeGolyer to get the master auto-positive negative made of the erecting drawing for that engine over 15-years ago so I could get a copy of the drawing.

By the way.... What is the source (other that the Goldmann, nee Buegel drawings) of the other set of K36/K37 drawings? The Colorado RR Museum?

LL

[Loco112]

By the way.... What is the source (other that the Goldmann, nee Buegel drawings) of the other set of K36/K37 drawings? The Colorado RR Museum?

Nope. Sorry I can not give that one away. I've been all through the CRRM and they only have a few drawings of each loco, not enough to do anything with.

I do have an excel spread sheet that has every Baldwin drawing that the K-36 used, it was something like, well let me go over here and look....... There were 421 drawings for the K-36 ! Bet you didn't get that many from Truson. I know, I looked into buying a set from him and found that its not all there. Tom Miller had to create quite a few drawings when he was building his K-36.

I don't give away my sources, but that does not hurt you, as I also don't make any money on helping people get drawing sets, so I will get you anything you could buy and for the same cost, you just have to tell me what you want and promise you'll pay for it when I get it. I probably need to start taking deposits before the day I spend my own money and can't get it back, but no one has stiffed me on that yet.

I'm going to be posting the K-36 excel sheet on a web site pretty soon so you can get it when It goes up.

The North Pacific Coast #12 "Sonoma" (4-4-0) is a neat loco, I knew Frank ALlen who built a 5" version of it. It is a good simple loco to build, but its too lite and slippery for what I need.

Keep talking, finally someone who knows the value of real builders drawings! I like you already! We need to find a few other cohorts and get this topic moving along.

Are you sure you are not interested in building a 3" scale K-36? You sound like a likely applicant for inclusion into the new 3" group. How far are you from Texas?

Loco112

[Curtis_F]

I have a full drawing set for Baldwin 8-18C-25, better known as the North Pacific Coast #12 "Sonoma" as LL mentioned from CSRM. Which I bolstered by measureing parts off the "Sonoma" and her sister Eureka & Palisade #4 "Eureka" personally.

I have a nearly full set of drawings for Lima Construction #3315 aka Pickering Lumber #10, later West Side Lumber Co. #10 (arguably the largest 3' gauge shay built). I'm still collecting prints from several sources for this engine.

I have copies of all John Maxwell's C-16 drawings.

Somewhere around here is a copy of the drawings for a Carter Bros 10ton Ventilated Box Car. Which is also the drawings they used to build their regular Box Cars to.

Also have a setof detail drawings for the Carter Bros 8ton & 10ton trucks.

There's also a set of drawings made by a fellow back in the 1980s who measured every piece of lumber and iron from a Carter Bros Combine car.

---

LL,

I need to thank you for the NCNG #9 drawings from DeGolyer! I bought a copy of those drawings a few years back. That is flat out my favorite narrow gauge engine.

---

Speaking of DeGolyer, they have dozens of side elevation and crossection drawings for 3' gauge engines.
Sumpter Valley #16 & #17 (both 2-8-2s)
Uintah #10 (2-6-2), #20 & #21 (0-6-2s), #11 (2-8-0) and #30 (outside framed 2-8-2)
East Broad Top #4 & #5 (both 2-8-0s)
Colorado & Southern proposal for a 2-6-6-2
Denver & Rio Grande #24, #25 & #30 (all 2-8-0s)
Eureka & Palisade #8 (2-8-0)
Ewa Plantation #7 (2-6-2)
Hawaii #5 (2-4-2)
Nevada-California-Oregon #4, #7 & #8 (4-6-0s) and #14 (big beautiful 2-8-0)
Oahu Railroad & Land Co "Leahi" (4-4-0) and #22, #31 (2-8-0s)
Oahu Sugar Ltd. #6 (0-6-2)
Pacific Coast #3 (2-8-0)
White Pass and Yukon #59 & #60 (4-6-0), #61 (2-8-0), #62 (4-6-0), #68 (2-8-0) and #69 (2-8-0)

Those are just the domestic engines that I can identify as 3' gauge, there are potetnally more, and dozens of foreign 3' gauge engines as well.

As for the DeGolyer's collection of part and detail drawings they have several very interresting pieces. For teh Nevada-California-Oregon they have a drawing of a Simplex Tender Truck. They have several sheets of drawings for Nevada County Narrow Gauge #5 (1875 2-6-0). Tender Frame Drawing and Snow Plow drawing for Uintah #11 And many sheets of detail parts for early (1870s) D&RG engines.


Cheers,

Curtis F.

[Loco112]

Congrats on your Baldwin North Pacific Coast "Sonoma" set. You know, Erich Thomson is the person that ordered those from Baldwin long ago and he donated them to the CRM after he decided that the “Sonoma” was a bit too lite weight for his RR projects.

I have a nearly full set of drawings for Lima Construction #3315 aka Pickering Lumber #10, later West Side Lumber Co. #10 (arguably the largest 3' gauge shay built). I'm still collecting prints from several sources for this engine

-That WSL #10 is a neat shay, keep after that set! That would also make a great 3” scale 9” gauge loco, I will have 3”-scale 8+1/2” x 150 cc pumps that will bolt right on there in about a year.

I have copies of all John Maxwell's C-16 drawings.

-Good effort but, this is where Maxwell dropped the ball.
There are over 150 drawings for that locomotives and John didn't get but just a few of them.
I do know where the whole set is and its possible to can get them for you, but it will not be easy. I'll have to do some dealing to get that done, as the owners of those drawings don't like us drawing hunteres and they think their drawings are worth a "fortune". I'll try to get a whole set form them as that is the easiest way most times.

No one wants to pull drawings from a set and try to make copies, they always want to copy the whole set at one time and sell that.

Sounds like we have another prospect for the 3" group.

[LivingLegend]

Coronado Models in the Pheonix area has narrow gauge erecting drawings as well as other NG related drawings for sale.... Got a copy of the erecting drawings for tha Uintah 2-6-6-2T engines from them a couple years ago.

Loco112:

Do you have a source for the drawings for the DRGW C19's and T-12's? Not the T12 #169 when it was rebuilt (frame, spring rigging, etc), but the drawings for the T12 as delivered from Baldwin. I know there is a drawing of #169's new frame from the rebuild. Warren Weston and Gail Gish had a copy of it when they designed their 1.5 " scale T12 in the '70's and that is the frame used on both of their engines.

LL

[FLtenwheeler]

Thanks for starting this thread. It goes to show you what drawings are out there. I have the drawings scanned to 400 dpi TIFF file for the standard gauge drawings that I have collected for the CNW. It costs about the same, they do not take up as much room and I can import them into my CAD program and trace them. It also provides a backup copy for the archive that has the original that they can keep off site incase off a major catastrophe.

Tim

[FLSTEAM]

Loco112

Are you making your drawings available?

John

[Loco112]

My Drawings are always ready to make parts from if you play in my scale, that’s the only way to have access to the parts those drawing will create. I trade some drawings, and I have sold some at times, but what I really want is for someone else to help get the missing drawings.

If you just want to buy a set of drawings from one of the archives that I mentioned, get your money together and talk to me via email. The bill will be into the Thousands, and that is not including my costs, but I’ll pay my expences to get a set of the drawings, that’s my contribution. I'll go and get them for you, you can pay the copy bill and I will get a set of copies of the same material for my efforts and my expense, but don’t expect me to tell you where they came from or anything else.

Do you know how many steam era companies there are still operating with huge drawing archives and no one (except me) is pressing those companies to have that material placed into museums? Want to know why there are no ALCO steam loco drawings for livesteamers to be built from, they went up in smoke, apparently because I was not there to ask for them. ALCO had a bonfire that consisted of about 5-boxcar loads or paper drawings back in the 1950's in a great big hole behind Schenectady and no one even complained. We either need a rich guy to help buy all the archives that I know about, or a library that is interested in buying everything and putting it in one collection. My current project is to talk a certain library into seeing the value in putting all those little collections together in one place. If I can get that to happen, then you" "Average Livesteamer" could go there and buy the whole set if you wanted. That is how it should be, so maybe I can accomplish that.

Right now I would like for people to step up and start working on a specific steam-era company or two and talk to the employees there and find the drawings and get them into personal collections, then you decide if selling a set of those copies is worth the effort you expended. All that work is how I got those drawings, and they cost me probably 10,000 hours of effort and about $30,000 in expenses, long distance phone bills and letters, travel to talk to people, time in hotels at night to be able to look though filling cabinets by day. This was all in the late 1980's and early 19990's when that cost a lot! So I will sell you all copy of my whole archive for about 1/2 what I have in it, that’s about $70,000. See my dilemma.

I only mentioned what drawings I had so I could get you guys thinking ahead. I know how lacking your collections are, and I need you, each and everyone of you to start working on a specific company and trying to get what they have. Once you have a set of drawings to something that no one else has, then you can sell me a set or trade me for something that I have that no one else has. See how that works.

If you are serious about wanting to have a set of drawings like I have, we (you and I) will figure out one of the companies that has something that you need and I'll tell you how to get after them and get what you want. Contact me via private email; rmst "the symbol for at" airmail. net (put that all together and that is my email).

I'm going to use my archive and the other drawing archives that I know of to make parts for the 3" scale 9" gauge group. We are going to have the best parts and the most toys! So getting into that group is the way to end up getting the parts that result from my having those drawings, but I might not ever let go of some of those drawing sets. You can email me and ask, but I'm not promising anything.

So who wants to work on finding the;
Worthington feedwater equipment drawings
Talk a company into donating their Pyle-National headlight archive to a museum.

Talk another co. into donating their Pyle-National Turbo generator archive to a museum.

Work with me to correct the DeGolyer libraries Baldwin filling system, its so wrong its impossible to find what set a drawing belongs to (Baldwin had a weird system and Degolier does not follow it)

That’s all for now. I want to see more guys writing in this topic, it’s important that we discuss this. Loco112

[LivingLegend]

I have not been involved with research of any kind for the last 15-years. At this point in time, what contacts with some of the various steam related RR companies that I once had are likely long since retired or most likely, no longer with us. Some of my memory is a bit fuzzy. I chaulk that up to all the other crap (including family) I've had to deal with over the last 15 years. I'll try to piece together some of what I can remember. It's been such a long time ago.... So, if I have any of this wrong that you know of, by all means correct the record!

During the start of my researching days in the mid/late 1970's, I was on a mission to find all the infomation possible for the C&O's L2-class 4-6-4's. The C&O 4-6-4's (#300-307) with the Baker gear, not the 4-6-2 to 4-6-4 (L1-class) rebuild or the later L2a-class 4-6-4's with poppet valves.

Around 1980-81, I managed to get in touch with Baldwin. Yes, that Baldwin. Believe it or not, they were still in the choo-choo business.... I was told by my new contact that their only purpose, at that time, was to make parts for what BLW diesels were still in use around the world.

My contact at BLW was a higher up in the engineering dept. He told me in the 1950's when he was still a "young" engineer with the company, BLW started to get rid of their steam drawings. He was one of the ones at BLW that despirately tried to keep all the BLW drawings intact and preserved.... NO ONE WANTED THEM. The Smthsonian, no one. (He also told me how close the builders and shop construction photo achive came to being sent to the dump! Fortulately H.L. Broadbelt kept that from happening.) I was told the only thing the Smithsonian wanted was the eariest BLW steam. Statonary, early loco's, etc. They wound up piecing them out to various collectors, groups/organization, and the like just to keep them from being destroyed. Anyone they could get to take them. There is more was told, but too much to write here.

One of those collectors was C.W. (Charlie) Whitbeck in Louisiana. Some of you may know that Disney bought one of Whitbeck's NG plantation engines to use at Disneyland, and it's been running there, at the park, for around 50 years. It is the BLW drawings (and other material and info) from Whitbeck's collection that make up a majority of the Southern Methodist University's DeGolyer Library's BLW collection.

The curator at DeGolyer during the early 1980's, Dawn Letson, told me that the Lima drawings came to them (DeGolyer) by way of the Smithsonion, who decided they didn't want them. Because of the headaches involved with their trying to organize just the BLW stuff, DeGolyer eventually gave the Lima drawings to the California State RR Museum, who, as you know, now makes them available for research. In the 1970's when Sue Johnson was Curator on Manuscripts, she attempted to get the BLW (and Lima material) cataloged. Dawn was involved in this effort and told me it was hard to keep the student workers going on it. They (the students) had no knowledge of anything they were looking at and trying to catalog. At some point during those days, they apparently let a couple of unscrupulous "Railfan" types in to look at the BLW material and they proceeded to "liberate" a few things from the collection. As a result of this, Sue Johnson restricted any and all access to library personel until everything was cataloged.

I had had contact with Dawn Letson on the phone many times. I was still living in L.A. in those days, and on one of my trips to Alabama in 1979 or 1980 to see relatives I made a stop at SMU. This was before the DeGolyer Library building was renovated. Dawn was now curator, and told me the collection was stored in the library stacks of the Law School on the other end of campus and, if I wanted, she would take me to see it. I was on a very tight schedule and asked if I could take a rain check until I came through on my return trip.

In a few weeks, I was back at SMU/DeGolyer and Dawn took me to see what was stored at the law library. I was told I was the first non-library employee let in to see any of that collection in years. Until I went in there, opened the boxes, and told them what was in them, they didn't really know what they had there.... and there was a lot more besides BLW. I only had a few hours so I could only look a cross secton of what in about fifty or so boxes, crates, etc. In around ten file boxes alone were the BLW specification books for various loco orders. Some of those books in the area of 250, 350 or more pages. Most were in the 100 to 150 page range as I recall.

I'll write more about some of the other sources I came up with later.

LL

[LivingLegend]

I first made a contact at General Steel Castings when they were still in Granite City, IL.... Just across the river from St. Louis.

Back in the first days of my research during the late '70's/early '80's on the L2, I was able to hook up with an engineer at GSC. Most all of the GSC drawings had already been copied onto rolls of micro-film. The micro-film printer in house at the GSC offices was, in a word, "CRAP." so they would send the film out to a specialty house to get a high quality print copy if it was so required. And the place they used at the time wasn't cheap! But in those days it wasn't any problem to get a drawing copy made.... IF you had the GSC drawing number. Othewise you probably would get stuck paying a sizable sum to have an employee to research what you were looking for on their own time.

The Museum of Transportation in St. Louis was given, by GSC, and had stored (inside a freight car in the museum's collection) GSC's drawings, The museum also had 1.5" scale models of tender/car trucks, among others, that GSC had made of their full size offerings. The last time I contacted the museum about the GSC collection they have (and the Nathan drawings... another sad, discouraging story!) was around 7 or 8 years ago. At that time the GSC (and Nathan) material still had not been cataloged.

GSC was later bought by Buckeye Steel Castings, in Columbus, OH., primarily for the GSC trucks as I was told by one of the Buckye engineers. At that time, I seem to recall that what drawings/micro-film was in Granite City was moved to Columbus. I never attempted to personally obtain any copies of GSC drawings directly from Buckeye, although Jim Kreider got one or two GSC drawings that pertained to the L2 for me that I didn't already have while he was living in Columbus ten years or so ago. Prior to that, I did get some drawings from Buckeye for their tender trucks that were used on the L2.... And it cost me an arm and a leg! Plus, the only guy at Buckeye with whom you had to deal with at the time to get what you wanted was a real A**hole.

Since that time, Buckeye went bankrupt, re-orgaanized, and became Columbus Steel Castings. I don't know what the status is in regards to the availability of any of the steam related GSC drawings from CSC since the new company came to be. Or, even if CSC still retains any.

Point of trivia: Pres Bush's paternal great-grandfather was president of Buckeye Steel for around 20-years in the early 1900's.

LL