Worthington #4 BL2 Feedwater Heater question

[Curtis_F]

Hi Curtis,
I can get a hold of john, I will send him a e mail and see what he knows.
david.

Oh yea the shop tour is still on next time your down here.

David,

Thank you on both counts!

------

I spent about four hours looking over the prints and reading the loco cyclopedias and if the answer is there I'm not seeing it. I'm getting the feeling that it a simple answer, and I'm looking for something complex.

A Westinghouse air pump has it's little Valve Rod nested inside of the piston rod that at the very end of it's stroke actuates a small D valve, which in turn sends steam to a large shuttle valve that moves the main D valve that supplies steam to the cylinder to reverse it's direction.

These Worthingtons' apparenlty don't have any reversing linkage, unless it's not shown in the drawings. Which means it would have to be a differential pressure system, which seemes like it would be easy to "dead center" the valve, yet these pumps worked rather reliably.

Quite a mystery.


Cheers,

Curtis F.

[Rwilliams]

I can remember my father speaking of how easy it was to fire a feedwater heater equipped locomotive. As long as you were working steam, all the fireman had to do was to turn the steam control valve on the fireman side of the cab and one had the best form of boiler feed possible. In a station or a siding, the injector had to be used which put colder water into the boiler and had to be done in small amounts to avoid shock to the boiler.

He never mentioned anything but the one valve for control of the feedwater heater. It could very well be that this appliance is much easier to control than we realize. Most steam appliances were kept fairly simple in order to keep training to a minimum and maintenance costs as low as possible. I doubt that the operation of the #5021 as a light engine at the fairgounds years ago generated enough high pressure exhaust to enable operation of the feedwater heater.

One report had the #5021 as the best possible engine to restore to operation of all the locomotives in the collection at that time. Inspections of the other engines all turned up major problems far beyond the capabilities of the group at that time. Remember that the SP had spruced up the engine in Portland and operated it in regualr freight service all the way to Los Angeles at the time of donation. An engine in questionable condition would have been run light or towed dead in train.

Many of the locomotives donated by the SP were in great shape as they had just been through the shop and never run much as the economies of the diesel were greater than the SP realized. They had planned to keep the newest and most modern steamers in service until at least 1960 until the diesels proved themselves better than expected. They were experimenting with significant improvements to the 5000 class locomotives as late as 1947 to gain higher performance including application of roller bearings to one of the engines in the class. The usual stipluation was that a donated locomotive never run again without permission of the railroad. I had never heard of them doing things to disable the engine going on display. Upon seeing one engine prepared for display in late steam, my father reported that the only thing the engine needed was an updated cab card if it was to run again.

Some display engines have been reported to have pieces of pipe for piston rods and these were because the original piston rod had already been removed or torch cut preparing the engine for movement to the scrapper. The application of the pipe and some silver paint made these engines look good for dispaly and most would never know. It was only in the later years of restoration that the water pipe trick would become known.

There is a rumor that during one of the crane assisted moves at the museum years ago, that the front end suffered a severe drop which may or may not have cracked the cylinder casting. Since all the 5000 class locomotives received up-dated steel cylinder castings with 12 inch piston valves in the 1930's, the cylinder casting may not have cracked during the crane incident.

Does anyone know if the report of the cracked cylinder casting on #5021 is true or just more gosssip?

Robert

[Pennsy fan]

Robert I can say running a engine with a feedwater system does help,
I had a chance to fire the royal hudson some years ago when it ran it's
normal trip in BC. It had just one valve with a pressure gauge to run the
pump. You set to pressure to keep the water where you want it, and small
adj's to suite the load. Easy.
d.

[LivingLegend]

Robert:

Don't know about the cracked cylinders...

What I had heard was they crushed the journal box cellars and I think bent a rod in the crane incident. Again, that's what I heard. Don't really know what's exactly true or correct.

I believe the incident took place after the engine returned to the fairgrounds after it had been stored at the Santa Fe yard-shop in San Bernardino. The track (that 5021 had left the fairgrounds on) from the fairgrounds out to the SP main had been removed, and panel track had been laid down to get SP 4449 and the "Freedom Train" in for display in 1976. Before the panel track was removed, 5021 was brought back to the fairgrounds. NOTE: This was at the original RLHS display site which was later moved for the expansion of the racetrack and stables.
.
I do remember hearing that the railroad didn't want it's employees working on it to get the engine operating at the time and told them they would be fired if caught.... I know of one who was working on the engine who told me the RR sent people out to make sure they weren't. He almost got caught. Again, this is what I was told. True... or exageration? Flip a coin.

EDITED....

LL

[LivingLegend]

Many of the locomotives donated by the SP were in great shape as they had just been through the shop and never run much as the economies of the diesel were greater than the SP realized.

When the SP donated no. 3001 (a 4-4-2 w/ Stephenson valve gear) to Travel Town in the 1950's, it had been through the shop at Taylor Yard. It was all set to go. By the 1970's, it had all but been stripped clean by "collectors" and vandels.

By the way, if I remember correctly, the pistons and piston rods for the Big Boy at Pomona are stored in it's tender. Anyone know for sure.

I went to Pomona the day Jim Kreider took Bill and Sarah Purdie out there the summer when he retired as Master Mechanic of Steam for the Southern Railway. Was the first time Bill had seen a Big Boy up close, and he was impressed. I asked Bill at the time, if the engine were taken into the shops (remember, this was in 1984) how much it would cost to rebuild it for operation. His answer? "Got a million dollars you want to spend?"

LL

[Curtis_F]

Why start a new thread when you can resurrect an old one?

By chance, does anyone around here have a photo a Worthington B, B2, BL or BL2 Patent plate?

I'm betting that if I can get the dates off of it then I can track down the patents that hopefully cover the reversing mechanisim/system.


Thank you for your time,

Curtis F.

[FLtenwheeler]

Look for "Worthington Pump and Machinery Corpora heater" around 1920 or so

Tim

[Curtis_F]

Look for "Worthington Pump and Machinery Corpora heater" around 1920 or so

Tim

Already did. "Worthington Pump" Turned up a lot of interresting stuff including the patent for the reversing valved on the type B & BL pumps. But I didn't find anything on the B2 & BL2 pumps other than general layout information.

I also found out that before that the company was previously called "The Blake & Knowles Steam Pump Works" which turned up some more interresting stuff.

One of these patents for the pumps I found quite by accident. There was no serachable information on it, just a patent date & number. So I'm thinking there may be more out there.

Blake-Knowles Steam Pump Works - Engine Valve - 30 June 1914 - US1102181
Blake-Knowles Steam Pump Works - Engine Valve - 30 June 1914 - US1102180
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Valve - 20 Jan 1920 - US1328274
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heating Apparatus - 24 Aug 1920 - US1350322
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Valve - 7 Feb 1922 - US1405525
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Engine Valve - 5 Sept 1922 - US1427767
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Engine Valve - 14 Nov 1922 - US1435191
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Valve - 14 Aug 1923 - US1464837
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Valve - 18 March 1924 - US1487023
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heating System - 29 July 1924 - US1503082
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Valve - 21 April 1925 - US1534260
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Engine Valve - 5 May 1925 - US1536787
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heating Aparatus - 22 Dec 1925 - US1566799
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater - 3 Aug 1926 - US1594537
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater - 16 Nov 1926 - US1606880
WORTHINGTON PUMP - (B & BL) Engine Valve - 31 Jan 1928 - US1657560
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater - 29 Oct 1929 - US1733989
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater - 29 Oct 1929 - US1733990
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater - 24 Dec 1929 - US1741124
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Valve - 15 April 1930 - US1754747
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater - 23 Dec 1930 - US1785983
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater - 17 March 1931- US1796717
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater - 4 Aug 1931 - US1817075
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater - 4 Aug 1931 - US1816841
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater - 22 Dec 1931 - US1837876
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater of the Tank Type - 4 July 1933 - US1916736
WORTHINGTON PUMP - Feed Water Heater - 24 Oct 1933 - US1932111


Curtis F.

[Pennsy fan]

MR. CF,
You know you really should quit goofing off on this site and get back to work.
d.

[Curtis_F]

MR. CF,
You know you really should quit goofing off on this site and get back to work.
d.

Hey man, this site gives me a reason to keep working.

[Gary Bonine]

Curtis,
I was part of the group that originally rebuilt and operated the SP MK-5, 786 in Austin, TX. It has a Worthington SA system on it. The control valve for it's operation is on the fireman's side. The control valve for the BL unit should be the same. On diagrams it is listed as the "Pump Thottle Valve ".
Gary

[Rob Gardner]

How much was the 5021 operated in the 70's? I assume it never made it out on a mainline as I've never heard anything about "operation" until seeing this thread.

Rob Gardner