Allen mogul plans and "scaling"

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Benjamin Maggi
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Allen mogul plans and "scaling"

Post by Benjamin Maggi » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:50 am

I was thumbing through my Allen mogul plans last night and I had a couple of questions that I was hoping someone could help me with.

1. The very first plan is the extended-length profile plan. I was thinking of having it copied in a store and laminated, so that I could hang it on my wall or something. On this print, and not on any of the others (that I saw), Allen had put in the note on the bottom "do not scale print." What does that mean? Is that telling the copying store not to reproduce it? Is it telling the reader of the prints not to reduce them for other scales like 1" or 3/4"? If that is so, shouldn't all the plans say that? Can someone help me out?

2. What is the best way to ensure that the plans remain safe? Do you guys make copies of them and keep the originals tucked away, or place the one being used under a protective plastic sheet?

Thanks.
"One cannot learn to swim without getting his feet wet." - Benjamin Maggi
- Building: 7.25" gauge "Sweet Pea" named "Catherine"

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gwrdriver
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Post by gwrdriver » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:52 am

Ben,
Paper is affected by humidity. When the humidity is relatively high, paper will expand, when the humidity is low it will shrink. This note is a warning to you that because your paper prints may have expanded or shrunk any dimension scaled (taken) from the print MAY be inaccurate. "Do Not Scale the Print" is a universal caution - everyone should know this even if it's not written on the prints.

I don't know what type of reproduction was used to make your prints but the old Diazo (blue line prints) line images are greatly susceptible to UV light and prints need to be stored out of sunlight for long-term preservation. If they are photocopies (Zerox, etc) the line imgaes are pretty stable but the paper will yellow over time. Possibly the best way to preserve now is to have them scanned.
Last edited by gwrdriver on Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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knucklepin
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Post by knucklepin » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:54 am

Benjamin:

Every blueprint should have the note "Do not scale." The intent of that note is to remind the reader to use the dimensions that are called out rather than to lay a scale on the print to measure a part characteristic. Back before the days of CAD, a draftsman could change a dimension but leave the drawing unchanged. For example, say a hole is dimensioned 3/16" in from an edge but it scales 1/4" because it was originally to be 1/4". After assembly considerations, it was discovered to too far from the edge so the dimension was changed but the actual hole location remained at the 1/4". The draftsman is supposed to put a squiggly underline on the new dimension to indicate it's not to scale... don't count on that happening. Then there is the matter of paper stretch. Yes it does and at a different rate, horizontally or vertically, depending upon the grain of the paper

Regarding copying a drawing, copyright laws allow you to make copies for your own use. You could make a hundred copies and put one everywhere in your shop. You can scale them up, down, make them blue or green. You cannot, however, distribute any of them to others for free or for a fee. That's for the copyright owner to do.

Hope that helps...

Neil

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Benjamin Maggi
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Post by Benjamin Maggi » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:08 am

Both replies do help. Thanks. Ben
"One cannot learn to swim without getting his feet wet." - Benjamin Maggi
- Building: 7.25" gauge "Sweet Pea" named "Catherine"

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Steven E. Kuhn
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Post by Steven E. Kuhn » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:13 am

In the mid-80's I worked for a patternmaker for a couple of years. The first thing he taught me was do not scale off the prints. This means do not take a scale (ruler) and measure a specific part on the print. All dimensions are given on Allens prints unless otherwise specified. Always look for a dimension and use this dimension as stated on the print. Although most of Allens drawings are full size the number is final particularly important when working in thousands. In those days prints werte drafted by hand and mistakes could be made with the line drawings but far less likely with the actual number.

I keep my plans in the basement on a shelf next to my work shop. All my plans are kept flat. I hate rolled up plans because I don't like fighting with them. But this is a better alternative than folding the prints which puts creases in them that eventualy tear with time. So flat is the way for me.

For copying I visit Kinkos rugularly, they also provide a laminating service. I wouldn't want to laminate one because then I wouldn't be able to write notes on the prints if necessary.

Hope this helps.
Steve Kuhn

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Fender
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Post by Fender » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:15 am

Benjamin,
I would suggest you find a blueprint shop (which is oriented to architectural plans) to make your copies. They will be much cheaper than one of the ubiquitous copy shops (Kinkos, etc.) for large originals. Of course, they don't really make "blue" prints anymore; it's done using the same modern equipment as the copy shops. They can reduce, enlarge, or scan your originals into a file and put on a CD.
Dan Watson

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steamin10
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"blue" prints

Post by steamin10 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:46 pm

I commonly get a scaled drawing and then copy it at the archatectural service, and have them laminate the copy. Read the dimensions from the print, never use a rule or scale to take the dimensions. the very act of copying may shift the scale somewhat. So saying, I have taken HO scaled drawings and blown them up to large scales, either G or 1.5 inch for my pruposes. The copy shop does this in stride and adjusts the scale of the print so it is very close. It costs very little for the copy, and only a coupla bucks more for the laminate. Well worth having a nearly indestructable copy in the shop. A blowup like that will not have usable dimensions, but they can be worked out with a scale and dividers, to back engineer the image, Like a wheel for a truck being 30, or 36 inchs, and working dimensions from there.

Having said that, working prints, are best stored flat in a print cabinet. There they get little air to oxidize, or humidity to deteriorate with. Most of my original prints are in cardboard tubes and marked with the contents, I use the copies for the shop, laminated copies for master work, as they are exposed and handled the most. I use to have a Cigarette sign board swung from an arm that had aluminum snap strips to hold the print, and often used some acrylic window sheet to make a cover against coolant splash and oil spatters. It was great, but got a little clumsy, I could swing it to me to fine tune my understanding of the piece I was making on the lathe or mill. With the laminate, you wont tear stain or damage the print, anything just wipes off of it, only thing is torch spatter will make spots. ( Duhh!). Dont ask.

Hope this can help.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
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Rwilliams
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Post by Rwilliams » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:41 pm

Anymore a print is just a point of reference from which to start working from. In the construction of a steam locomotive, there is what the draftsman put on the paper if it was in fact correct.

Then there is the actual manufacture of the part with the machines available in the shop and the skill of the help.

Finally there is the assembly of the parts or shop fit as it is called. The shop fit is the real deal and is what we have to live with.

Having seen too many hobby prints with uncorrected mistakes in the past, my approach is to look at the print and ask myself if I really do want to build to these dimensions. In many cases, I look at the real thing in a museum and come back home with fresh ideas. Then I modify the drawing, many times make a new drawing, and build it like the full size builders did. Things always look great and I have kicked the original idea up a notch or two in the process. I have been known to throw drawings and already made parts away after finding the original prints and parts to be less than adequate for my needs.

Keep in mind that this is a hobby where most anything will work if you give it a chance. There is nothing written in stone and prints are just one area that guides us to a finished model. I used to look at a print and consider it something to never veer from under any circumstances. Many years later, the print is nothing than a road map with lots of different routes that can be taken before the trip is over.

Robert

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Benjamin Maggi
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Post by Benjamin Maggi » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:52 pm

After hearing all your responses, I started thinking about places that do blueprint copy jobs. Then I remembered a close friend works in just such a place. She said that she does them all the time! I think I will only get the first one copied and laminated for now, just to hang on the wall. I will get the tender ones copied too, because that is what I am working on first.
"One cannot learn to swim without getting his feet wet." - Benjamin Maggi
- Building: 7.25" gauge "Sweet Pea" named "Catherine"

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gwrdriver
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Post by gwrdriver » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:00 am

Ben,
Most blueprint services use a scanning process to reproduce large prints, if this one does, see if they are able to give you the scan file on CD or memory chip for future use.
GWRdriver
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charlie bill
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Post by charlie bill » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:36 am

Ben,
Iam building an Allen consolidation, there are a few mistakes on the prints, also some of the parts may be bigger or smaller than the dimension. Charlie

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LVRR2095
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Post by LVRR2095 » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:41 am

For the drawings I use in my shop, I glue them to poster board to make them easy to handle and keep the edges from fraying. I use a 3-M product called Spray-Mount. Artists use it but I'm sure any store such as Staples would also carry the stuff. Now my drawings don't end up dog eared and looking like they have been through an accident.
Keith

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