Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

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Harold_V
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by Harold_V »

Alder, here, is much like a weed. We have many on our 5½ acres, several that are large enough to yield great wood. I've taken note of its fine grain, and would give some thought to using it for patterns.

Thoughts?

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
Rwilliams
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by Rwilliams »

Harold,

For a short run pattern, alder would work, but not the best choice. It is a coarser grained wood (fast growing) and much softer than cherry, maple or Honduran mahogany. Alder is soft to the point of being able to show dents with only minor surface contact or a bit too much pressure from a clamp or a vise. It also can exhibit irregular grain since it is so fast growing. It also tends to chip out much more than the finer grained woods. It can also exhibit open pore issues it grows so fast. I know people that will use it because of the economy in cost and being soft, therefore, easy to sand. The problems it gives during working do not make up for the economy in cost. Also, some people are allergic to alder dust and stay away from it for that reason. I can work with it for a few minutes at best before experiencing severe bouts of coughing. I have also had students that had to leave the shop for fresh air as they too could no longer breathe. Therefore, I no longer teach with alder and only a few pieces are still remaining in the back storage room. Even a dust mask is not the total answer as they seldom work 100 percent of the time. Worse would be the use of redwood or red cedar as the dust is toxic and can result in nasal cancer. If it can kill bugs on contact, it is not much better for humans either.

Red alder does have a place in commercial hardwoods, but for scale model wood patterns, there are better choices when considering problems during construction and long life in a foundry situation.

Robert
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Harold_V
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by Harold_V »

Thanks for your comments, Robert. It appears that there are better choices. We had even considered alder for our cabinets in the new house, but my nephew made that choice not too long ago and mentioned how easily they are dented (confirming your comment in that regard). I'm going to assume that using alder would not be in our best interest, in spite of having a generous supply.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
boomerralph
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by boomerralph »

Pipescs,
The engine that Fltenwheeler referred to is probably Paul Stewarts engine. many parts were built by Bob Dean of Bob Dean Supply.
see his ad on Discover Live Steam for sale page. I have always found him to be very helpful to those in the hobby
Ralph M. Reese
St. Augustine, FL
Under Construction
LE Pacific
Allen 10 Wheeler
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Pipescs
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by Pipescs »

First off... Thanks for all the feed back. Please do not stop.

Especially thanks for the website that showed the computer models for brake systems. The graphics for the Frame Brake Cylinder Support and Frame Brake Fulcrum alone make the site worth while.

This explained the wholes inthe frame forward of the drivers. It should be a simple matter to design these components to work wint he frame concept to date.


As to the pattern concept I started with:

I have used AutoCAD 2002 for years to draw my model airplane designs. Part of my process was to lay out the parts for cutting by a friend in Tenn to put out a short kit. My thoughts are a contuinuation of my past

This is my last work which I am very proud of as it was published in Model Airplane News a few years back.
Copy of DSC_0341.jpg
My approach to the patterns was to do the drawings in CAD, Scale them up for a 1/8 inch per foot shinkage and Add 3/32 extra for the machined surfaces. And of course the extra to be able to sand back to a smooth finish on the edges.

The patten would be split thru the middle at the centerline of the webbing as this appears to be the way the original must have been cast.

One of the nice things about cad cutting is the fact you can offset for the kerf of the lazer and get exactly the parts you need.

This layup for the nose bowl for the Gee Bee was cut in two layers of Balsa in sections with alignment wholes for 1/8 inch dowls to be used when gluing up the rings. For the Pattern for the wheels I intended to use AC plywood.
DSC07263.jpg
DSC07524.jpg
After reading all your comments I can try it both ways with the first ones out of cherry or maple wood as a single layer.

To be honest I have only planed to do one set of wheels. but still feel the patterns need to be right. In working on my LE American I have come across both good and bad castings.

More later
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
Rwilliams
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by Rwilliams »

For an intricate pattern like a spoked drive wheel one would be wise to avoid the maple as it is harder to sand in the tight round corners. I would definitely go with the cherry on a drive wheel pattern. For a simple pattern without lots of internal curves the maple is a nice choice.

Anyone that has visited a foundry has certainly observed the way mounted patterns on boards are just left to lean against the walls, or hang from the ceiling or from racks. The separation of the patterns is little to nothing with constant contact. Is does not take long for small movement to transfer through the long strings of hanging patterns like dominoes. Even storage in the home shop is problematic. This is a major reason the stay away from the softer woods. Alder is better left for the smoking of Pacific Salmon and the interior framing for upholstered furniture.

Robert
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by Doug_Edwards »

Rwilliams wrote: Alder is better left for the smoking of Pacific Salmon and the interior framing for upholstered furniture.

Robert
While it is a matter of taste, I didn't care for salmon smoked with alder. I felt birch or hickory gave a much better flavor. I preferred to use green birch limbs over dried.

I have used pine, alder, and at least cherry for patterns I have made. Patterns I made 35 years ago out of pine have pulled apart so much as to be unusable today without some rework. I didn't have this problem with the alder. I have liked everything about cherry except that it was more expensive.

I have some patterns made over 70 years ago out of Honduran mahogany that are still very serviceable today.

Regards,

Doug
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Building a 70 ton Willamette in 1.6"
Building a 80 ton Climax in 1.6"

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Pipescs
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by Pipescs »

Off subject but I love my smoker. Being in Alabama we of course use hickory from out back in the woods here.

Never tried Salmon Steaks. How long do you smoke it and what temp?

My daughter lives in Washington State and I will need to have them send me some fillets
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
patternguy
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by patternguy »

Pipescs, I would not steer you wrong. Over the last 27 years I have worked in 4 pattern shops and 3 foundries. I have had my own shop for the last 3 years, and work with about 7 or 8 foundries. I got on this site to try to help guys like you make beautiful steam engines, and have fun doing it. I dont no that much about steam engines but I know pattern making and castings. I am trying to help make a pattern the least expensive and most officiant way possible. If you want PM me and I will help walk you through the process that myself and the hundreds of pattern makers that I have worked with would use. I dont want to sound like a know it all, but I want to see all you guys have fun in what you are making, and not see you get discouraged buy things that wont work, or will take a long time. Dave C.
Scott K
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by Scott K »

Hi,
Concerning the driver differences between Fitts book and 1401 at the Smithsonian. I think the issue would be that Fitts book covers the locos built by Schenectady.
1401 was built by the Richmond plant. I can't help but think that the wheel patterns would have some variations between the 2 plants.
Also Fitts book shows a Rev Y and Rev Z on the driver drawings. Perhaps the 1401 kept her original drivers through out her life and never received the updated driver pattern.
Big time Southern Ry fan here best of luck on your project!
Scott K
nickco201
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by nickco201 »

I don't have my southern books with me right now, so am not 100% sure, but off of memory I am pretty sure that the 1926 batch which was I believe 1393-1403, were all Richmond built. These were the first with the elesco FWH and the longer tenders. The later 1928 batch were Baldwin built and had the long tender but riding on 2 axle trucks. Generally by the 1940s most Ps4s had the baker gear replaced with Walscheart and the alligator crossheads replaced with multiple bearing crossheads. I remember hearing a reason why they went away from baker, seem to remember something about southern believed walscheart being better when notching the locomotive back more. The multiple bearing crossheads apparently yielded more miles between shoe relinings. However N&W actually went the other way and the later batch of A class and J class had alligator instead of multiple bearing because they found them multiple bearing crossheads to be harder to keep in proper alignment and harder to detect broken shoes. I would just go with the driver pattern that you can find the drawings for.
Scott K
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Re: Southern Railroad PS-4 Pacific Design Discussion

Post by Scott K »

I to have heard the different theories as to why Southern converted all their larger locos to Walscharets valve gear. The most common one is that Southern was concerned that Baker gear would come un-hooked at speed. How ever it does not seem to hold much water when you realize that the LS-2 mallets(Baker gear) were used in fast freight(50 mph +) service between Birmingham and Atlanta. My bar room theory is that an accountant was behind the change to Walscharets valve gear.
Scott K
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