Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

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gwrdriver
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Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by gwrdriver » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:04 am

Someone has contacted me for help on construction and information on what regulations apply to his proposed boiler, . . . for the Model Engineer 1" scale traction engine (aka the "Minnie") I don't know what might apply. Can someone fill me in on the generalities?
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tsph6500
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by tsph6500 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:59 pm

Short answer: Model engineering sized boilers are exempt from regulations and codes in Canada. Some clubs impose their own regulations without any official authority.

I've never been asked for any club issued boiler coupon (worth 10¢ off a coffee at Tim Hortons) at the dozen or so clubs I've visited in Canada and the USA.
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Michel Richard
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by Michel Richard » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:47 pm

Jim is right to use the plural "regulations" and "codes". I believe boiler codes are provincial. So your friend should first state which province he's in. But it may well be moot if model boilers are excluded everywhere.

Cheers

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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by gwrdriver » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:14 pm

Quebec
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by tsph6500 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:38 pm

gwrdriver wrote:Quebec
Moot. :)


Feel free to put him in contact with the Montreal Live Steamers.
Best regards,
Jim Leggett

Montreal Live Steamers
www.montreallivesteamers.org

A Founding Member of the Tinkerbell Scale Society - Northern Division
I'm an A.R.S.E. (Association of Railroad Steam Engineers)
Toad Swamp & Punk Hollow Railroad - Head Tycoon
The Juvenile Traction Company - CEO & Apprentice Machinist 3rd Class
White Mountain Central RR - Engineer

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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by James Powell » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:48 pm

Ontario: sub 55 psi or 5 gal contained volume is exempt. (generally taken to mean under 10 sq ft heating surface, by 80-100 psi operating is ignored)

Little Johnny with ~15 sq ft and running at 165 raised TSSA's ire, hence it's export to BC.

BC: 2M^2 and under, exempt all requirements. (~22 sq ft)

James

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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by Michel Richard » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:20 am

I looked it up for Quebec. Under 2.8 square meter heating surface (approximately 30 sq. ft) or under 30 KW power is exempt.
Other exemptions exist.

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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by gwrdriver » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:54 am

Thanks for this information and I have already suggested he contact the MLS.
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by johnpenn74 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:09 pm

Isn't being "Exempt" from a boiler code sorta like saying the laws of physics don't apply? Even if it is not required that you work towards ASME (or some other appropriate boiler construction code) because your boiler is under a specifc size or capacity, wouldn't you STILL want to be working towards some kind of industry standard. If there is a national boiler code why not use it?

To put it more abrasively, are people who can't QUALIFY their boiler to industrial code saying they know better, IE the code is bunk?..

No, I haven't built a boiler yet...

JP
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by gwrdriver » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:34 am

I'll have to say that's about the most extreme (and negative) interpretation of exemptions I've ever heard. To me exemptions represent an acknowledgement by the regulating powers that be that there are practical justifications for non conforming boilers under certain conditions and they have the flexibility to allow this. Some folks that came before us worked tirelessly to get those exemptions granted, they are there for us to use so why not used them. The man who contacted me for help wasn't fleeing from regulation or responsibility, he was in fact anxious to know and fully comply with all the regulations which might affect him. This runs contrary to the majority of questions I'm asked which are usually along the lines of "How cheap and quick can I do this and I get away with it?"
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super7b
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by super7b » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:35 am

As I generally sit with my "important bits" in close proximity to a boiler on a loco I believe that it is important that the vessel has been constructed to a recognised standard (by me and inspected by an approved inspector), operated by me in an approved manner and inspected periodically at set intervals (by an approved inspector to, in our case, nationally set standards) to ensure that the structure of the pressure vessel is maintaining it's designed pressure containment.

I have no problems with an inspector telling me what is right and more importantly what is wrong with my boilers.

Shopping around to find a convenient set of "rules" that your boiler will comply with indicates that there is either something wrong with the vessel, or your approach to your own safety and the safety of others who have placed their trust in you believing that you are competent to operate and maintain a pressure vessel.

If you think that you know better, try proof reading your own typing!

Not intending to denigrate the views of others but one publicised boiler failure (explosion) will be one too many for all of us.

Lawrence

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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by James Powell » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:16 am

perhaps I should be clearer:

I am a Marine Engineer, working on one of 2 large steam plants left in the Royal Canadian Navy. I have been professionally responsible for the last 10 years for the operation of a pair of 107 000 lb/hr boilers, where we operate with limited oversight (no provincial oversight, however we have an internal process). I've been involved in road steam since I was 5 or so, and have a fair healthy respect for the power of steam.

Just because we are exempt from provincial oversight, doesn't mean that the club is not interested. The exemption that we fall under is intended so that boilers with a relatively low risk are not inspected, but those with a larger risk are. (boiler inspection is a risk mitigation process, if you haven't figured it out...)

Both BCSME and VIME require a club boiler inspection to operate on site. What else do you want? as has been pointed out elsewhere, stupid is stupid does, and if you don't have a healthy self preservation instinct, then there is the potential of something going wrong. The same as there is a potential of a traffic accident involving your live steam engine on the way to the track.

By your attitude, you assume everyone is making 7.x gauge engines, when we may well not. Can you find a ASME certified safety valve that will fit onto a 32mm gauge loco? (O gauge). Oh, you can't. guess what? There are some of them out there (SM32 live steam)...and by your standards, that is completely unacceptable, because we are not working to a "nationally approved code".

In my case, the traction engine boiler was welded by CWI in Hamilton, from plate that was bought for the purpose, but without mill stamps/ect, as when it was built was when MCCR were still in charge in Ontario, and they had a different interpretation of the regulations than TSSA.

I'm certain of the original qualities of the boiler, and quite comfortable with the inspection regime that it operates under.

Oh, btw, if you havent read it yet:
http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cf ... rklees.pdf

James Powell, Certificate 3A (PRO), Engineering Officer of the Watch.

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