Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

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Steve Bratina
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by Steve Bratina »

Boiler safety is always a concern. What about the operator. A bomb by itself is safe until someone hits it with a hammer!
Ever seen a guy pumping the hand pump wildly while looking at the gauge glass? Has anyone ever been asked to leave the track because they are deemed as an unsafe operator?
What qualifications do you require to be a club model boiler inspector? What exam has he written to get his C of Q for inspection. If he signs off on the boiler and something happens, the first question they ask in court might be "What are your qualifications to inspect pressure vessels?"
If I test my boiler and tell you so but you won't accept my word because you require a club test, what happens if I also say that I know how to operate this thing? It's good to have rules but make logical ones. Not just CYA ones.
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tsph6500
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by tsph6500 »

I wonder what the ratio is between catastrophic & uncontrolled boiler disassembly (metal shrapnel and/or scalding water in the direction of the operator or a bystander) VS collisions due to engineers who never flag the rear end of their train?

We had a university student do his thesis on risk assessment at our club under the supervision of our ex-safety officer. Risk assessment looks at the risk, potential damage/injury and likelihood of accidents. He surveyed the property, its structures, infrastructure and the equipment used , both private and club owned. The final conclusion was that the biggest and most likely injury was a member of the public tripping on the tracks.

Injury from steam boilers (safety valve release) was at the bottom of the list, under lawn mowers, coffeemakers, the bench grinder, etc. Catastrophic failures were statistically insignificant.

The safety officer has since resigned, never replaced as of yet.

Rules don't make people safe. Information and operating practices can lessen the chances of or the severity of accidents.
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johnpenn74
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by johnpenn74 »

Hmmm,... Let me ask the question a little differently...

Why aren't *all* boilers built to meet ASME code?
Even if you are under exemption?

Was the exemption intended for 8" to 10+" boiler sizes we see in 1.5 and 2.5 scale?
Or was it meant for the smaller sizes and lower pressures? 3/4" 1/2" and smaller?

JP
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James Powell
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by James Powell »

I would presume that the exemptions which exist to ASME are there because the energy in the boiler is considered to be below the threshold requiring external oversight.

The normal ones I have heard are 50 Bar/L, or 2-3m^2, or under 14" barrel diameter, or under 5 gal contained volume.

All of these are big enough to cover up to moderate sized 7.x gauge locos, but larger locos are likely in excess of exempt sizes. The requirements for certification vary from province to province beyond exempt size as well.

If the boiler has less than 22 sq ft heating surface here in BC, then the provincial inspector has no legal recorse or ability to inspect the boiler.


(1) This regulation applies in respect of every boiler and boiler plant, every pressure plant, every pressure vessel, every pressure piping system, every fitting, every plant and all refrigeration equipment and refrigeration plants.

(2) Despite subsection (1), this regulation does not apply to any of the following:

(a) a power plant with a heating surface of 2 m2 or less;



It makes sense to engineer a boiler properly when you are designing it. The paper calculations we have used to develop boilers are retained with the boiler, except in cases when the calc's are not really required. (minimal stayed surface, circular boilers don't need a lot of "engineering" to figure out how safe they are...). To be clear about that one: some of our 4 and 5" diameter boilers made from 1/4 or 3/8 seamless tube have had very little calculation done on them, because it is pointless to calculate the hoop strength for the boiler under those conditions. At the same point, the copper boilers with larger flat surfaces around those sizes require more calculation to ensure safety.

Generally, we (dad & I) do not recalculate for published designs, unless there is apparent issues with the boiler. On the other hand, I don't think we have ever built a published design, just finished assembling a couple of them...

The first boiler I did the math for was a 2 1/2" OD firetube loco style boiler. The formulas as laid out in Model Boilers & Boilermaking (KN Harris) work well to calculate the required stay size/pitch, and the strength of the boiler to calculate MAWP. The formulas are the same as what is in ASME, but they are laid out in a more user friendly book, with the intent of allowing for the design of copper or steel boilers using "regular" materials.

(again, physics don't lie, and the size of the boiler is irrelevent to the formula...the answer should be the same for a full sized boiler as a HO gauge live steam engine...)

James Powell
Michel Richard
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by Michel Richard »

JohnPenn wrote : "Was the exemption intended for 8" to 10+" boiler sizes we see in 1.5 and 2.5 scale?
Or was it meant for the smaller sizes and lower pressures? 3/4" 1/2" and smaller?"

I don't think the exemptions were put into the regulations specifically for the live steaming hobby. I agree with what was said above: the exemptions are probably put in because the regulator believes that the energy content of smaller boilers is low enough that detailed regulation is not necessary. The regulator probably assumes that people who deal with boilers are smart enough not to do anything completely stupid and that the public's safety will not be overly compromised by letting the person closest to the small boiler ensure that it's safe.

The fact that some regulations don't apply doesn't mean that we're allowed to put our brains in neutral, or in reverse.

On the other hand, I would really think twice before saying "If the boiler has less than 22 sq ft heating surface here in BC, then the provincial inspector has no legal recourse or ability to inspect the boiler." I would want to read the whole of the BC pressure vessels regulations, the statute, and all other regulations. If an inspector thinks you're being unsafe, of if he sees a crowd of kids around a boiler that is right at the limit, and he has concerns, he will find a way to ensure the crowd is safe - as he should.

Finally, despite all the statutes and regulations, if an inspector walked up to me and started asking questions about the boiler on my 3/4 inch scale Kozo A3, I would welcome his input. At one point, though, I would want to get two things across to him: 1) I'm not stupid, my boiler was designed properly, constructed carefully and submitted to a careful schedule of testing and 2) I'm looking for his input on an informal basis only, because he technically doesn't have jurisdiction. Hopefully, that way, a big fight could be avoided and maximum safety ensured.
James Powell
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by James Powell »

The portion in Italics is straight from the BC code. It exempts all power plants under 2m^2 from the provincial boiler regulations. Note, it will not save you from other regulations which you could fall afoul of, but the boiler inspector (Mr Trevor Emsley, here on the Island) has no legal say so to do anything about the boiler at that point.

It's like spark arrestors- not mandatory in the CRD. Why? Because the language used...they specify internal combustion engines must have one. By doing so using exactly that language, they exempt external combustion engines from requiring one. (next step, don't be a idiot, and travel the roads with the traction when the fire risk is too high...yes, I have been a volunteer firefighter here...)

The reality is that as far as dad and I are aware, the last fatal incident involving a model boiler "exploding" happened in the 1920's, and that most individuals will be either following someone elses writings (LBSC/Martin Evans/Kozo etc) or a member of a club, or have full size experience before they get to making a boiler. If an individual is a member of a club, then the club likely has a designated boiler inspector who has some knowledge of the subject, and can aid in the safe design and testing of the boiler. Remember, a boiler certificate says something like: this boiler appeared sound on xx date by xx person. Other than the day of the test, it means nothing, other than the boiler appeared sound on the date of the test. The proper use of engineering should result in a boiler which is safe to operate for a duration of time. Proper operating techniques will maintain the boilers safety to operate for that duration of time.

James Powell
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John_S
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Re: Canadian Model Boiler Regs/Guidelines

Post by John_S »

Just to toss my 2 cents in here ...

When I set out to build the boiler for my Allen mogul I went to three members of our club for help. They have all built multiple boilers and are three of the best metalworkers I know. I would never have attempted to build my boiler if these folks weren't there to help design, fabricate, and weld right along side me. Sorry Marty, if you're reading this, my other option was to order one from you!

Here in Georgia we've been subjected to state inspection under the classification of "amusement operation" for many years. Recently the state even started charging $80 per boiler for these inspections; however, if you read up on the GA boiler code, pretty much every live steam boiler (under 15" gauge) is fully expempt. The regulations are for boilers with greater than 5cu ft of space and 250psi, but yet the state inspector still insists that we must be inspected.

As far as the state of Georgia knows -- I don't have a boiler, and they never will.

This doesn't mean that I don't care about safety or construction of or maintenance of my boiler, it just means that I don't want the government involved in something they're not given the power to be involved in in the first place.
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