CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

This forum is dedicated to the Live Steam Hobbyist Community.

Moderators: Harold_V, WJH, cbrew

Post Reply
prr094
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: South Jersey

CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by prr094 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:33 pm

Last summer I purchased a used CliShay that appeared to be complete minus the hand water pump. I posted a help question on the Chaski site to learn more about the missing hand pump and associated piping. A few people responded with suggestions (Thanks!).

I have recently purchased the CliShay book and there is a reference to the Hand Water Pump in the original design being too small to recover from a low water situation and should have the ram size increased.

I was wondering if anyone that owns a CliShay or have operated one… does the original design supply enough water or should a larger pump be used? I do not have any tools or the ability to machine the pump per the drawings, so I need to find a ready-made hand pump I can install in the tank.

My original thought was to purchase a PM research hand pump BFP-1M. http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/home.php?cat=111
I asked them about the dimensions and they sent back the following information. The overall dimensions are 3 ¾” in length, 4” in height, 1 ¾” in width with thread size 5/16-27 which equals 1/16-27 National Pipe Thread. Do you think this would work in place of the original?

My other thought… and this was suggested by someone else on the Chaski site… was to build a riding car that has a larger water tank and install a larger water hand pump. I was thinking about building a riding car to go with the CliShay anyways and putting a water tank on this with a larger Locoparts or Accucraft water hand pump would easily keep up. My thought is that I could use the larger pump to do a hydrostatic test on the CliShay boiler and my other 0-4-0 steamer.

I would change the piping and not use the front water tank and just use the water from the riding car. My understanding is that there can be a problem with water levels in the originally designed front and rear tanks maintaining equal levels when operating?

I have a YouTube video posted at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEY5J5mEYpc of my CliShay and shows the condition of it.

I plan on going to the Cabin Fever Expo and would like to pick up a hand water pump. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Russ

User avatar
Bill Shields
Posts: 5574
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:57 am
Location: Somewhere in the World
Contact:

Re: CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by Bill Shields » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:57 pm

make one....want a design?
Too many things going on to bother listing them.

prr094
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: South Jersey

Re: CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by prr094 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:03 pm

HI Bill,
I do not have any machinery to make one (i.e. lathe, milling machine, etc.) If you have a design that I could make one using common hand tools... I'm would be interested in learning more.
Russ

User avatar
Lovesthedrive
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: Downeast Maine

Re: CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by Lovesthedrive » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:36 pm

On the clishay, if you wanted water in. People would put the engine in neutral and spin up the engine.
1952 John Deere model 60

Wanted: Half size steam tractor. Will trade land in Maine

prr094
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: South Jersey

Re: CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by prr094 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:04 pm

I was thinking about that as an option to put water in the boiler. However I would like to have at least 2 different methods of putting water in the boiler. I believe I recently saw a posting of a 12 volt water pump that some people were using. But then you need to lug around a big battery.

David_T
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:34 am

Re: CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by David_T » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:26 pm

The main questions about the PM pump are, what are the bore and stroke? Even with the relatively small boiler of the CliShay, a small 3/8 bore x 1/2 stroke pump would wear you out. Convert bore and stoke into millimeters and calculate the CC's per stroke. The above pump delivers a mere .36cc per stroke. A cubic inch of water is approx 16.4 cc's. That is 46 strokes. You get the idea!

User avatar
kenrinc
Posts: 692
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:11 pm
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by kenrinc » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:13 pm

I'd forget about the PM Research unit. It's far too small for your application. That's really designed for their little boilers that provide steam for running small table top steam engines.

Locoparts or Accucraft are really your only options for ready made. http://www.locoparts.biz/parts.html#Handpump RRSC also sells one. I think it's similiar to the Locoparts.I know the Locoparts is a duplex pump (pumps on forward and reverse stroke) I thought it was a 5/8" ram but now that I look at it the description says 1" :shock:

I built "Bill's" hand pump via his drawings and so far it seems to work well although I won't know for sure until I'm ready to use the damn thing ... :roll:

If your considering an electric pump, have you ever considered an injector?

Ken-

prr094
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: South Jersey

Re: CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by prr094 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:34 pm

I just wanted to thank everyone for all of the comments, private emails and ideas.
Yes... I now see that the PM Research unit is not large enough.
Putting the engine in neutral and running the engine to pump water is a great idea.
Also adding an injector is also another great thought (and I happen to have a spare injector not being used)

I saw a tender for sale on Discover Live Steam (now sale pending). I probably should have gone after that.

Again... thanks for everyone’s help.
Russ

User avatar
Lovesthedrive
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: Downeast Maine

Re: CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by Lovesthedrive » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:03 pm

Two other thoughts:

If you dont have the machinery to build. There are members of the board here that might give you a price on building. I suggest either of the Pullen brothers, Andy or Kap.

Another suggestion would be to watch ebay. I have seen some worthington duplex pumps going for $500
1952 John Deere model 60

Wanted: Half size steam tractor. Will trade land in Maine

User avatar
Bill Shields
Posts: 5574
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:57 am
Location: Somewhere in the World
Contact:

Re: CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by Bill Shields » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:47 pm

My design (www.mehrs.com) is simple, but does require a minimum of a lathe and some silver soldering skills. If I didn't already have 3 unfinished / overdue projects on the bench and really no time until fall to even look at it, I would happily make you one.

Don at Locoparts has a pump also - but it is like mine - needs to be totally submerged (or should be).

You really want something about 1/2" diameter with 3/4" stroke for the ram.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.

prr094
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: South Jersey

Re: CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by prr094 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:31 pm

Hi Bill,
Thanks for the offer.
I'm a mechanic by trade but not a machinist. I can drill, tap, grind, weld, burn, plazma cut but have never had any training on nor own a lathe or milling machine. And that is OK by me. My plan is to go with the LocoParts pump so I can use it for hydro testing the boiler.

Russ

User avatar
Lovesthedrive
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: Downeast Maine

Re: CliShay Hand Water Pump Question

Post by Lovesthedrive » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:18 pm

Always nice to have a backup plan (use for hydro's). The reason these pumps are usually underwater? They will pee out the sides as you build up pressure as they get worn out. So as long as you are comfortable with a shower as it gets more pressure, the pump will work fine not in a tank of water.
1952 John Deere model 60

Wanted: Half size steam tractor. Will trade land in Maine

Post Reply