CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

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gwrdriver
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CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by gwrdriver » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:21 am

For builders or owners of the Disney CP-173 or RRSC 440, . . . tell me about your throttles. What was originally called for, what do you presently have, and how does it perform? I don't have the drawings for it so I don't know what was originally called for (or changed to.)
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Re: CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by LivingLegend » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:29 pm

The Disney 173, as designed and shown on the Disney drawings for the engine, was a prototypical balanced steam dome poppet valve throttle. Dick Bagley, whose own history with the Disney 173 goes back to it's beginning, once told me the Disney throttle wasn't any good. Dick also told me used a throttle of his own design in his own Disney 173. You can see Dick's steam dome throttle design (along with his smoke box throttle) in one of the articles he wrote for Live Steam magazine back in the early-mid 1980s.

As I remember, the original throttle for the RRSC 173 was a sliding slug type. I don't remember for sure who designed it.... Think it could have been Joe Nelson. King Frey (Frey Engineering) built the boilers during the Chet Peterson days of RRSC, and this was the throttle used in them. It was a fairly decent throttle, as I recall, from my running a few of the RRSC locos back in those days. I don't know if RRSC changed from that throttle to another in later years.

Cary Stewart and/or David Rohrer can probably give more info on the RRSC throttle than I can. Or correct anything I may have written in error on it.

LL
Last edited by LivingLegend on Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by gwrdriver » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:00 pm

LivingLegend wrote:You can see Dick's steam dome throttle design (along with his smoke box throttle) in one of the articles he wrote for Live Steam magazine back in the early-mid 1980s.
Thanks LL. I should have all the 80s issues.
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Re: CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by LivingLegend » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:12 pm

Harry....

Dick's Live Steam magazine article on throttles is in the July 1983 issue.

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Re: CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by TEAMTSM » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:06 am

could u possible post a few pics for some of us that don't have the mag and no way to get it.

thanks

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Re: CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by gwrdriver » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:39 pm

I was certain I would have 1983 but I couldn't find that year in my stacks (yet.)
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Re: CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by Cary Stewart » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:04 pm

The RRSC 4-4-0 throttle was a round slug sliding in a hole. It worked fairly well but was a little fast, that is it gave full throttle with a fairly short through of the lever. The reason was that to make it easy to make the two holes that controlled the steam were both round and the same size. I had suggested an improvement but was declined. The design I conceived would have had convex curved surfaces converging at the fully closed position. As the throttle lever was pulled to admit steam a very gradual opening would give better control of the steam admission to the cylinders. Others have done this on different steam engines. Not real easy to make but doable.
Cary

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Re: CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by Dick_Morris » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:09 am

Harry - Check your email for Dick Bagley's LS article.

This is how I put the throttle into my CP-173. It has a steel boiler. The stack and petticoat extension are about the only things in the smoke box made per RRSC drawings.

There is a street L (1/4"?) coming off of the dry pipe which points downwards (it's behind the petticoat extension) and a ball valve is arranged vertically and threaded onto the L. The outlet side of the ball valve has a pipe plug threaded into it which is machined off flush. It has two of the flats on the wrench surfaces drilled and tapped for pipe threads. The flats and threaded holes face forward by 30 degrees. The rest is a combination of copper street Ls, soft copper pipe, compression fittings, and a couple of silver soldered joints. My saddle is fabricated. The steam pipes to the cylinders are bolted with flanges to the flat floor of the smoke box, which is part of the saddle. The linkage is visible to the right of the petticoat extension. The piece of the linkage at about a 45 degree angle is the lever on the ball valve. Steam piping within the bottom of the saddle also had a flange and more copper pipe. It all fits fairly well in the constricted space.

When I was making decisions on where to put the throttle, Moodie Braun gave me a copy of an LE throttle drawing and suggested I use it in lieu of the RRSC design. (I think he may have had a CP-173 before he bought LE.) I recollection is that it was fitted inside the boiler and used a bullet shaped plug for the valve. I decided to use the ball valve after reading a Live Steam Article that advocated their use, possible written by Bob Maynard. I thought an accessible valve that could be maintained or replaced would be preferable to one buried in the boiler.

RRSC sold the boilers complete with the throttle included, although you the throttle drawing was included in the drawing set. Buying a finished copper boiler was out of my price range ($682.00 in 1972 dollars.) When I was looking for boiler drawings they wouldn't share the copper drawings and I don't believe there was a design for a steel boiler. All they provided was a boiler outline drawing.

My throttle currently leaks a bit past the ball and should probably be replaced by one more suitable for the temperature. If I do replace it I might also see if I can modify the ball or seat to be more progressive in operation.
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CP-173 Throttle.JPG

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Re: CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by LivingLegend » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:16 am

The Little Engines throttle Dick is referring to, was basically a pipe 'T' with the dry pipe coming out of the "side" inlet into the steam dome. And two bushings in the other inlets.... One for the throttle rod, the other for the valve seat. The valve itself, was a long tapered plug.

I ran LE's display Mogul, "Lulu II" (the 1800's period 2-6-0), a few times at Southern California Live Steamers when it still met and ran on the track in Irene Lewis backyard in Lomita..... Which was where LE was originally located. Lulu II had the tapered plug style throttle I mentioned above. It was a smooth action throttle, allowing for a gradual opening and release of steam and a nice, easy starting of the engine.... Not a a jerky start.

LL

EDITED.... 09/20/2013 @ 0750 HRS CDT
Last edited by LivingLegend on Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by LivingLegend » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:42 am

Dick....

I don't remember Moodie ever owning a RRSC 173 before or after purchasing LE from Irene.

Moodie did buy a 4-4-0 during the time he owned LE, though. It was considerably larger 4-4-0 than a CP173, and was a freelance design built by a SCLS member.... Whose name escapes me at the moment.

LL
Last edited by LivingLegend on Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by LivingLegend » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:02 am

Charlie Dockstader used a throttle of his own design in his El Gobernador. Charlie probably used the same throttle or throttle design later, when he built his CP 4-8-0.

Charlie's throttle had a teardrop opening in a flat seat with a sliding valve on top. Charlie showed me a copy of his design sketches for the "El Goob's" throttle a few years after he finished the engine. As memory serves, there was a flat spring acting as a pressure plate against the throttle's valve.

It was a very smooth and trouble free throttle.

LL
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Cary Stewart
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Re: CP-173 and RRSC 440 - Throttles

Post by Cary Stewart » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:02 pm

Moody had a complete set of CP173 castings, drawings and accessories but he never did any work on it. He offered me this kit and a COMPLETE brand new EMCO Maier Maximat V-10 Mentor with vertical. It had every accessory that was available at the time. During the occupation of Austria he had something to do with administration of something that had to do with EMCO. Salzburg was in the US Occupied Zone. He was given a very heavy discount on the machine and stuff. He had brought it home from Austria when he was transferred from there to LA. He was an officer in Air Force Logistics before retirement and the purchase of LE. He offered me the complete outfit of machine and CP-173 for $4,000.00. It was just out of my reach with two young children to support. Moody did find a buyer but I don't think I ever knew who it was. As Eyore would say - "OH WELL." Cary

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