Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

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Bill C
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Location: Pensacola, FL

Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by Bill C » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:36 pm

Hi and Happy Thanksgiving to all,

I am about ready to machine the side rods for my mogul and would love to see photos or good set ups for machining. I think i can handle the center distances ok, as thanks to Fred V, I have made some test/adjustable side rods and have them adjusted for a good fit with no binding.

My biggest concerns are milling the slot for the back rod at the rear of the front rod, practical tips for machining the bearings from round stock, and the general setup for milling the rods. If any of you have photos showing your setups, those would help tremendously.

I did try searching here and the Allen Locos Yahoo Group, but did not see any such photos.

Thanks again for any help and advice,

Bill C.

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Marty_Knox
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Re: Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by Marty_Knox » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:53 am

I know I will get flak for this, but the Allen castings are designed to be made with the simplest of methods. The slot can be 'machined' with a file - the tongue that fits in the slot can also, but it it is easier to mill it. As for the bushings, they can be bought form McMaster-Carr with the ID and OD finished to size, sometimes even the correct length. One caution - do not use the sintered, Oilite bushings.

hudson
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Re: Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by hudson » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:19 am

A good source of information is:

http://www.neidrauer.com/heavymikado/index.html

and

http://www.karlkobel.com/index.html

Happy building,
hudson

Bill C
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Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:14 pm
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Re: Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by Bill C » Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:00 pm

Hi Marty and Hudson,

Thanks so much for the links and reassurance. I won't try to make this harder than it needs to be, just am very excited to have gotten to this stage and want to do it right. I will be using the stock Allen aluminum rods.

I bought a 1" round bar of 932 bearing bronze from Enco and plan to turn it in the lathe to make my bearings. Will do the ODs to a push fit for the rod holes and the IDs to the crankpin OD plus about 5 thou, then slice them off to the thickness of the rod end.

For the rods, my plan is to place the adjustable rod in the mill, then use wigglers and my DRO to measure the appropriate distances between centers. Then remove the table vise, align and clamp down the rods to the table (properly supported with some aluminum scrap pieces). Then drill/bore the hole for the bearing ODs on the center dimensions measured from the adjustable rods.get the front pair done first, trial fit on actual chassis, fix any mistakes, repeat for rear set.

Sound like a plan?

Many thanks!

Bill C.

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cbrew
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Re: Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by cbrew » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:38 pm

it looks like you may have what you needed, but i figured i would still share what i did with the ten wheeler.

First I measured the chassis, I wanted to make sure frame was in fact what the drawings called out
so i used the edge finder and the DRO, I measured both sides of the journal and took the mid of both.

I did not use the allen castings but here are some pics of the machining of the steel rods
Attachments
frame_sm.jpg
MidRod.sm.jpg
rods_sm.jpg
boring.jpg
rodsdone.jpg
installed.jpg
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.

Asteamhead
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Re: Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by Asteamhead » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:32 pm

Hello Bill,
There are some photos showing how I milled the side rods for my A. Hope they are of some help?
Boring the seats for the bearings in exactly ( within 1 thou ) the right distance and of precise diameter is shown there. You can measure (and correct, if necessary) the distance by using a good digital gauge. Just add the measured values of the inner and the outside edges between the bores and devide the result by two.
A simple gauge tool to control both distance and diameters of the bores is to be seen above the rod. That tool will help making all rods equal and within narrow tolerances.
Best luck!
Asteamhead
Attachments
A-Gestänge, Bearbeitung_800x600.jpg
How I bored my side rods.
Control gauge to be seen above the rod.
A-Gestänge, Lagersitze_800x600.jpg
Boring the rods
Class A, Gestänge 3_800x600.jpg
Milling cyclic groves by means of a turn table

Bill C
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Re: Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by Bill C » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:48 pm

Hello Chris and 'asteamhead'!

Thanks so much for taking the time to post these photos! Chris, those are almost exactly what I was looking for, just need to support the work differently since I will be using the cast aluminum side rods. Do you have any tips for me regarding the bearings or the knuckle/pivot pin?

"A" - your configuration is certainly different, but it is very interesting to see how you have approached the machining of you side rods. Thank you!

I will be sure to post some photos of my efforts when I get to that stage (soon I hope)! I got the brake cylinders adjusted for smooth travel and the equalized brake rods painted today. Hopefully I will get them all reinstalled and adjusted tomorrow. Then comes the side rods and bearings....

Thank you all,

Bill C.

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cbrew
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Re: Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by cbrew » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:13 pm

Bill C wrote:Hello Chris and 'asteamhead'!

Thanks so much for taking the time to post these photos! Chris, those are almost exactly what I was looking for, just need to support the work differently since I will be using the cast aluminum side rods. Do you have any tips for me regarding the bearings or the knuckle/pivot pin?


Bill C.
Hi Bill, I used 660 bronze, but pay attn to the dims on the drawings, I am sure they are fixed now, but the old set of drawings i have called out a bad dim on the main driver. I did not catch it in time, but it was an easy fix.

as for the knuckle pin, I also changed that, I can not remember exactly why, it may have been i was not comfortable with the design. but i redesigned it.
I really like the looks the castle nut gives it :)

I will look to see if i shot some pics of the different pieces
Attachments
KnucklePin.jpg
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.

blff cty lcmtv wrks
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Re: Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by blff cty lcmtv wrks » Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:13 pm

concerning the machining of the allen side rods. while i have nothing but the best to say about the allen castings, i do not use the side and main rod castings, because i can't find a good straight line to start my measuring from. i buy what ever size of aluminum flat stock that i think i need from whoever has the cheapest price and start carving. the side rods, front and back, are machined in pairs, making a left and right rod, if that makes sense. i have a jig for both front and back side rods, and i made a jig for the main rods, that lets you apply a certain amount of windage to the workpiece in order to take care of the taper in the main rods, and any machining that one might do on the face of said main rod in order to enhance the appearance of your work.

for the bearings, i have been using the black nylon material for quite sometime with great success. i think its called nylatron, not really sure, though.

anyway, that's my advice, and you know what they say about advice.

good luck.

Bill C
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Re: Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by Bill C » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:38 am

"as for the knuckle pin, I also changed that, I can not remember exactly why, it may have been i was not comfortable with the design. but i redesigned it.
I really like the looks the castle nut gives it :)"



Chris,

The castle nut does look cool and, if you cross-drilled the bolt, you could use a cotter or safety wire to prevent it from coming loose. Don Orr talks about using a set screw to hold the bolt in in his Live Steam Magazine article about building 5 Moguls...

Thanks for the info and photo!

Bill C.

Bill C
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:14 pm
Location: Pensacola, FL

Re: Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by Bill C » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:14 pm

blff cty lcmtv wrks wrote:concerning the machining of the allen side rods. while i have nothing but the best to say about the allen castings, i do not use the side and main rod castings, because i can't find a good straight line to start my measuring from. i buy what ever size of aluminum flat stock that i think i need from whoever has the cheapest price and start carving. the side rods, front and back, are machined in pairs, making a left and right rod, if that makes sense. i have a jig for both front and back side rods, and i made a jig for the main rods, that lets you apply a certain amount of windage to the workpiece in order to take care of the taper in the main rods, and any machining that one might do on the face of said main rod in order to enhance the appearance of your work.

for the bearings, i have been using the black nylon material for quite sometime with great success. i think its called nylatron," ...

good luck.
Thanks, 'blff cty'!

The black nylon idea is interesting, although I will use the bronze since I already have some. How long does the nylatron last?

Bill C.

blff cty lcmtv wrks
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Re: Machining Side Rods - Allen Mogul - advice needed

Post by blff cty lcmtv wrks » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:10 am

to bill c:

my first engine had brass side and main rod bushings, cause i could get them free at work, but after a while, they started to wear out into an oval shape, which resulted in much slapping, banging, and clattering. i read about the black nylon in the live steam magazine; i believe it was written by some of the florida people. they liked using it because it because it had a dry lubricant made into it, moly something or nother, and being able to be run dry, sand, which i understand florida has large quantities of, didn't stick to it as bad. any hoo, i carved up a bunch of black nylon, which i found at work, for free, i might add, and i have never looked back.

i have built three more engines since, all have the black nylon side and main rod bushings. one of the engines is over ten years old. i see it run at least twice a year at the columbia, tn track. the rods are just about as tight now as the were on day one

i hope i am making sense, i am writing this at 2:00 in the morning.

give it a try, i think you will like it.

big c

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