Still Fighting With CAD

[SteveHGraham]

I started getting back into CAD this week, and I decided to resolve my issues with getting drawings done and sent off to CAM.

I originally used Alibre Design 2012 to draw, but I found out it was a dead end program. The AD_PRT and STL files it produces were useless for CNC, because no program would accept them. It would not generate other types of files. The folks at Geomagic set it up that way deliberately, to make people buy the full-blown version.

I bought Dolphin CAD and CAM, but I was never able to make 3D parts the way Alibre made them. I still have no idea how to rotate parts in 3 dimensions. I don't think Dolphin will let you do it, except in Partmaster 3D, which is just a viewer and exporter with no CAD functions.

I had to talk to the Geomagic folks today about a licensing issue, and they told me they used to offer an add-on that allowed Alibre Design users to export files that were actually useful, but the lady said I couldn't have it. But they are offering an upgrade for the low, low price of $400.

I decided to try the demo. I installed it and exported a part to Dolphin.

The first photo is the same part, exported through a bunch of free crapware. It's 2D, with all the other information gone. It is useless.

The second photo is a version that went through the new version of Geomagic. It could actually be useful.

I hate to spend more money, but I am fed up with Dolphin's CAD interface. Wondering if there is anything else out there, for nothing or very little, that will do what Geomagic will do, without a crappy interface.

[gwerhart0800]

I used to have Alibre, but could not justify the cost of the maintenance plan. (Additionally, I am a Mac user, so I was running it in a virtual machine ... not the best performance.)

I have been poking around the "OnShape" web based CAD system. It is being created by some of the folks that used to work at SolidWorks. (Alibre was a poor knockoff of SolidWorks.)

https://www.onshape.com/

You might want to check it out ... it is currently free.

[SteveHGraham]

Thanks. Yesterday someone told me about Fusion 360, which is an Autodesk product which is free for hobbyists.

[SteveHGraham]

It looks like Fusion and Onshape will not let you work or store things unless you're hooked up to the Internet. If that's true, then the companies, or the government, or your ISP, or the phone company can deprive you of your work whenever they want.

That's not very appealing, especially if you have an SHTF mindset.

[GlennW]

You might consider how often you actually need to model or machine using 3D.

In five years of using CNC mills I have yet to need it other than machining one 3D object just to see how it worked.

The part you show above doesn't seem to be a 3D part at all. Stand it up, drill and machine one end, flip it over, and machine the other end.

Here's is what I drew for a part I just made. (.dxf file)

Here's the part after CNC milling. (Screwed to a sacrificial fixture plate)

You draw in X,Y and then enter the Z cutting depths using the CAM software.

I like things simple.

[SteveHGraham]

I think you and I are talking about two different things. Maybe that's because I put this in the CNC area, and I didn't talk about the part that got me going on this topic. I posted pictures of a different part. The problem I'm talking about is a general problem. It applies to any part I draw, even if made manually.

The part in the pictures (which I machined a long time ago) is not a CNC part. It's just an example of a drawing I can't move from Alibre to Dolphin CAM. The compatibility problem I'm discussing applies to any part, manual or CNC (or woodworking, for that matter) so I didn't trouble myself to make sure I was using a CNC part to illustrate the point. I'm not sure I've ever drawn anything for CNC.

The part I was working on when I got back into this has already been made on a table saw and band saw. I didn't draw it so I could make it. I just drew it for CAD practice. It's a very simple wooden jaw for a lathe bed clamp. It has to be milled into a rectangular block. Two steps have to be cut into one side. Two holes have to drawn through it. Then the opposite side has to be milled off in a round shape.

In order to create a drawing with all the features, you have to be able to rotate the part in the program. You can't put features in a side you can't display. If you can only put features in one side, you have to do a separate drawing for each side. That would work perfectly well, as would using a pencil to draw on a napkin, but after using Alibre so much and getting used to seeing the entire part, it would be tedious and kind of a drag. It would also be hard to show parts to people who aren't used to looking at 2D drawings and picturing the resulting parts in 3D.

I'm learning more as I investigate. The easiest answer is to give in and upgrade to Geomagic Design. To avoid that, I looked at Onshape and Fusion 360.

I learned that Onshape is useless for people who want to work offline, so it's out. I'm not going to beg my ISP and DHS for access to my files or lose access to CAD every time a hurricane comes through. Also, I might want to design something and not tell our dear president about it. That leaves Fusion 360.

If you choose, you can use Fusion 360 offline. It also exports files for download, in a number of formats. I'm fiddling with it now to see if it's a good answer. So far, the interface looks like something I can handle without years of study.

As for the simplicity of the part pictured above, it requires a bunch of operations. It has to be turned on a lathe. Then the sides have to be milled off. Then it has to be drilled and countersunk from both ends. The reason that's not obvious is that the details are missing from the first picture because they got lost somewhere in the conversion process. You can't see them in the second drawing because they're not visible from that angle.

The basic body of the part could be made easily on a mill, but it's a lot faster on the lathe, so that's what I did. Wastes more metal than the mill, but I don't care. The smaller countersunk bores and the milling of the sides are mill operations.

Discussing that part further would be a distraction which would degrade the thread.

[GlennW]

I think you and I are talking about two different things. Maybe that's because I put this in the CNC area, and I didn't talk about the part that got me going on this topic.

Yes, I thought that you were headed for CNC machining and you were thinking that everything had to be programmed in 3D.

[RET]

Hi Steve,

If you are looking for a CADCAM program, you might consider Synergy by Weber Systems. Its not well known, but it should do what you are looking for. I bought my copy for $1,200.00 US. for hobby use. For that I get the use of it for my lifetime including all the upgrades at no additional cost.

It is a full 3D CAD program including Solids and it will also create the code necessary to produce the part. It has quite a number of post processors to adapt the code to your particular machine. It runs on Linux, not Windows, so you need a Linux box to run it. About 10 years ago now, I bought a turnkey CNC mill from Sherline. They supplied everything except the monitor. Synergy runs on that machine. By the way, you can buy the Sherline software for $25.00 on a CD which gives you Ubuntu, EMC2 and the Sherline overlay for EMC2 which is much more "user friendly" than EMC2 is. It installs easily.

The picture shows the part I'm currently working on. The 3D portion is made using the Solids part of the program. I use "boolean algebra" to subtract the holes from the rest of the part. By the way, any good CAD program will use IGES to transfer files from one program to another.

Just another thing to look at. Perhaps it might help. I must admit the learning curve is rather steep at first but there are tutorials that help.

Richard Trounce.

[RET]

Hi Steve,

Here's a better picture of the Synergy part without the flash. Besides, this one is in focus.

Hope all this helps a bit.

Richard Trounce.

[SteveHGraham]

Wow...$1200? Now I don't feel so bad.

[RET]

Hey Steve,

$1,200.00 is a bargain. If you are going to use something like Solidworks (a good commercial CAD program) commercially, you are looking at multiple thousands for a single "seat" with annual fees as well. On top of that, Solidworks doesn't do CAM; you need something like MasterCam which does both for that.

That's the Real world. True CADCAM programs are expensive, but they perform.

Richard Trounce.

[Gary Armitstead]

I retired from the trade back in 2003 and at that time I used BOTH Solidworks and MasterCam. We used software that we could actually make money with! There is a tremendous difference from the cad software that a hobbyist uses that is "free" or costs under a $1000. Solidworks back in 2000, cost us about $3500 per seat and that DID NOT do CAM. We also used MasterCam for BOTH CAD and CAM. MasterCam also had a built-in module that did solids (actually much better than Solidworks). That seat cost $13,500! After I retired, I was told that yearly "maintenance fees" were added (around $1500 per year per seat) so that the software could be "updated" or "fixes" or "patches" to the software could be installed. Tech Support for the software is also NOT free. I STILL use my seat of MasterCam even now at home to draw parts I need in the 1-1/2 scale ride-on hobby. MasterCam also allows me to do the tool paths to MAKE these parts and "post-process" the tool paths to an old 3-axis Bridgeport Bandit III! But my version of MasterCam is now very outdated compared to what the NEW versions of MasterCam can do!

Individual seats of Catia software (used at G.E. Boat to build the latest submarines) are now up in the $100,000 per seat range with computer stations that cost $50,000-$60,000 EACH.