If anyone has the boiler print for a Little Engines 4-4-0, and wouldn't mind loaning or giving a copy to someone in need, would you please e-mail me at brentcourtney@sbcglobal.net , I am trying to help someone who has an older engine get an idea of how his boiler is built.
Thanks
Brent
Little Engines Boiler Print
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southwestern737
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Bill Shields
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Little Engines
LE is still very much in business, and likes to sell their copyrighted products rather than have people work the system to get freebees.
Unless we support our suppliers, our suppliers won't be around.
It's one thing if they are gone and the source no longer available.
Unless we support our suppliers, our suppliers won't be around.
It's one thing if they are gone and the source no longer available.
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southwestern737
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Mr. Sheilds, I do not know you nor you me, but I will tell you that I take offense at being accused of trying to get something for nothing. I am well aware of the fact that LE is still in business, but you are obviosly not aware that because of liability concerns they no longer offer boiler prints. I am also involved in this hobby as a supplier and agree that we should all do all we can to support the suppliers efforts.
Sincerely,
Brent Courtney
Sincerely,
Brent Courtney
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Mike Walsh
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southwestern737
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Yeah, but is it a full print with all the flues and dimentions and material call out? No, it probably is just the boiler outline and refers you to a certified boiler builder.
Mike Walsh wrote:That doesn't make sense.. I just picked up a set of prints for a LE 0-4-0 in 1", and I got the boiler prints with it..........
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Dick_Morris
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LivingLegend
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As I recall, Irene Lewis, who founded Little Engines, kept selling boiler drawings for the loco's in the LE product line as long as she was the owner. Moodie Braun, who bought LE from Irene during the late 1970's, continued to make the LE boiler drawings available for sale until he sold the company. I don't know what the status is today regarding the public availability of LE boiler drawings.
When the original (Chet Peterson) RRSC first put their CP-173 on the market back in the early 1970's, RRSC made the loco's complete boiler drawings available as part of it's drawing set. The boiler drawing was also available separately. Sometime, around the beginning of the 1980's, might have been the very late 1970's, when liability and insurance concerns and it's cost started going through the roof, RRSC pulled that drawing from customer/public sale and access. RRSC did the same with the other loco's in their product line. From that point, the only drawing of a boiler that you could get from RRSC was an "outline" showing overall external physical dimensions. Nothing that could be used to build a working boiler from.... Other than, possibly, the external boiler shell.
Back in those early RRSC days, King Frey made the boilers for RRSC that they (RRSC) sold to their customers/builders, who didn't want to build their own, ready to mount on their loco's chassis. RRSC also had ASMC code (steel) boilers, again made by King, that they could provide if that was what the customer wanted.
I remember at that time, during my visits to Little Engines every couple of weeks, occasionally seeing a copper boiler for their 1.5 loco's being built in house. When Moodie owned the company, I believe John Braun (no relation to Moodie) was building the steel boilers for him. John later took over LE
All of this was happening around the time general aviation manifacturer's like Cessna, Piper, and Beech began slowing down (many to a stop) their production of small "private" aircraft. Insurance companies kept raising their rates on airframe liability policies to where the only those with big pockets or a corporate/ business could afford to buy.
Due to the product design liability factor, one could understandably see why some of the provider's of large live steam loco's wouldn't want to take a chance on the amatuer hobbyist building a steam pressure vessel. Partcularly, one that was to be used at location such as a Live Steam club where members of the general public are in close proximity during the operation of that loco/boiler.
In recent years, I haven't had any dealings with the present owners of the above mentioned companies. Or, for that matter, most of those who specifically provide locomotive "kits" to the hobby. I'll leave it to those providers, or those who have first hand knowledge as to the availabilty of boiler related drawings to bring forth current status and information regarding what is and isn't available.
One other thing. re: Little Engines smaller 1.5" boilers. The American, C.P. Huntington, 0-6-0.....
Little Engines had a different boiler design for their American/C.P. Huntington, as well as their 1.5" 0-6-0 back from the 1950's through the early 1970's. Those were the days when LE used bronze CASTINGS for various parts of those boilers in place of the same parts being made/formed from sheet copper. Even the firebox was a one-piece casting on the American/C.P. The porosity of the cast bronze boiler parts (especially on the front tunbe sheet) caused problems with weeping under pressure. Eventually, those boiler designs were replaced with one using all sheet copper for construction.
LL
When the original (Chet Peterson) RRSC first put their CP-173 on the market back in the early 1970's, RRSC made the loco's complete boiler drawings available as part of it's drawing set. The boiler drawing was also available separately. Sometime, around the beginning of the 1980's, might have been the very late 1970's, when liability and insurance concerns and it's cost started going through the roof, RRSC pulled that drawing from customer/public sale and access. RRSC did the same with the other loco's in their product line. From that point, the only drawing of a boiler that you could get from RRSC was an "outline" showing overall external physical dimensions. Nothing that could be used to build a working boiler from.... Other than, possibly, the external boiler shell.
Back in those early RRSC days, King Frey made the boilers for RRSC that they (RRSC) sold to their customers/builders, who didn't want to build their own, ready to mount on their loco's chassis. RRSC also had ASMC code (steel) boilers, again made by King, that they could provide if that was what the customer wanted.
I remember at that time, during my visits to Little Engines every couple of weeks, occasionally seeing a copper boiler for their 1.5 loco's being built in house. When Moodie owned the company, I believe John Braun (no relation to Moodie) was building the steel boilers for him. John later took over LE
All of this was happening around the time general aviation manifacturer's like Cessna, Piper, and Beech began slowing down (many to a stop) their production of small "private" aircraft. Insurance companies kept raising their rates on airframe liability policies to where the only those with big pockets or a corporate/ business could afford to buy.
Due to the product design liability factor, one could understandably see why some of the provider's of large live steam loco's wouldn't want to take a chance on the amatuer hobbyist building a steam pressure vessel. Partcularly, one that was to be used at location such as a Live Steam club where members of the general public are in close proximity during the operation of that loco/boiler.
In recent years, I haven't had any dealings with the present owners of the above mentioned companies. Or, for that matter, most of those who specifically provide locomotive "kits" to the hobby. I'll leave it to those providers, or those who have first hand knowledge as to the availabilty of boiler related drawings to bring forth current status and information regarding what is and isn't available.
One other thing. re: Little Engines smaller 1.5" boilers. The American, C.P. Huntington, 0-6-0.....
Little Engines had a different boiler design for their American/C.P. Huntington, as well as their 1.5" 0-6-0 back from the 1950's through the early 1970's. Those were the days when LE used bronze CASTINGS for various parts of those boilers in place of the same parts being made/formed from sheet copper. Even the firebox was a one-piece casting on the American/C.P. The porosity of the cast bronze boiler parts (especially on the front tunbe sheet) caused problems with weeping under pressure. Eventually, those boiler designs were replaced with one using all sheet copper for construction.
LL
Last edited by LivingLegend on Thu May 29, 2008 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Do it right.... Or don't do it at all
I have no life. Therefore, I have a hobby
It's not that I'm apathetic, I just flat don't care
An Intellectual is nothing more than an Over-Educated IDIOT
Blogs: Where people with nothing to say..... Say it
I have no life. Therefore, I have a hobby
It's not that I'm apathetic, I just flat don't care
An Intellectual is nothing more than an Over-Educated IDIOT
Blogs: Where people with nothing to say..... Say it
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Bill Shields
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Copyright Law
Unless they have changed the law in the past 3 days, ownership of the prints / drawings, and right to distribute them and prevent unauthorized copying, is still retained by the company, even if they choose to not distribute them any longer.
I know this because I am in the software business, and after a new release of software, the older versions are no longer supported and no longer available.
This does not mean the people are free to copy and distribute older software versions without any legal liability - quite the contrary. Copyright protection continues on long after an item is no longer produced, printed or otherwise available.
Years ago my father wrote a book on boilers. 15 years after his death, 10 years after the book was out of print, as his heir, I was asked to legally provide approval for a school to photocopy his book for their training classes, even after the publisher had already signed off.
Microsoft (and others) have entire teams of lawyers whose job it is to chase these things down - and you better believe that they are busy.
If Mike V. at Little Engines doesn't care, and says it is OK to copy / distribute prints to which he legally has rights, then Jiminy Cricket can be seen smiling.
My copies of LE boiler prints (not the one you are looking for, but others) all clearly state that they may not be copied or otherwise distributed without the expressed written consent of Little Engines, Inc. - which seems pretty clear to me.
It doesn't take too big a stretch to imagine someone copying the drawings, building a defective boiler, getting hurt, having an unethical (my definition) lawyer get involved and start sueing everyone in sight -
Finding the drawings around would immediately put LE in the middle.
While it is true the LE could probably get out from under such a fiasco, it would cost them many $$$ to do so...and I can see any liability insurance company backing out because since he didn't 'sell' the drawings to the person that used them, the insurance isn't in force (typical insurance company tactic).
Otherwise, I am sorry if I ruffled someone's feathers, but rules is rules, and not knowing them doesn't make someone's actions correct.
I know this because I am in the software business, and after a new release of software, the older versions are no longer supported and no longer available.
This does not mean the people are free to copy and distribute older software versions without any legal liability - quite the contrary. Copyright protection continues on long after an item is no longer produced, printed or otherwise available.
Years ago my father wrote a book on boilers. 15 years after his death, 10 years after the book was out of print, as his heir, I was asked to legally provide approval for a school to photocopy his book for their training classes, even after the publisher had already signed off.
Microsoft (and others) have entire teams of lawyers whose job it is to chase these things down - and you better believe that they are busy.
If Mike V. at Little Engines doesn't care, and says it is OK to copy / distribute prints to which he legally has rights, then Jiminy Cricket can be seen smiling.
My copies of LE boiler prints (not the one you are looking for, but others) all clearly state that they may not be copied or otherwise distributed without the expressed written consent of Little Engines, Inc. - which seems pretty clear to me.
It doesn't take too big a stretch to imagine someone copying the drawings, building a defective boiler, getting hurt, having an unethical (my definition) lawyer get involved and start sueing everyone in sight -
Finding the drawings around would immediately put LE in the middle.
While it is true the LE could probably get out from under such a fiasco, it would cost them many $$$ to do so...and I can see any liability insurance company backing out because since he didn't 'sell' the drawings to the person that used them, the insurance isn't in force (typical insurance company tactic).
Otherwise, I am sorry if I ruffled someone's feathers, but rules is rules, and not knowing them doesn't make someone's actions correct.
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Dick_Morris
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The RRSC drawings I got in the mid-1970s have a stamp saying they include proprietary information, but it appears that the only restriction is that they can't be used to produce the products commercially.
My guess is that unless drawings included reference to a licensing agreement, they would be treated like a publication, which can be resold, rather than like software, where you are typically only receiveing a license to use the software.
Of course, photo copying or otherwise reproducing a book or drawing beyond your own fair use would likely violate the copyright, if it is still in effect.
My guess is that unless drawings included reference to a licensing agreement, they would be treated like a publication, which can be resold, rather than like software, where you are typically only receiveing a license to use the software.
Of course, photo copying or otherwise reproducing a book or drawing beyond your own fair use would likely violate the copyright, if it is still in effect.
So if out of respect for a person’s intellectual property investment (and the law!), the source material is copyrighted, yet unavailable, what does a person do if they have a boiler, machine or something which otherwise you cannot determine its construction without resorting to destructive means (not desired) because you do not have the assembly print?
Just curious if any other options are available or if it is like the 1910 drill press I got - what you see is what you get - and paperwork is non-existent (like the maker and the chances of getting any paperwork).
Just curious if any other options are available or if it is like the 1910 drill press I got - what you see is what you get - and paperwork is non-existent (like the maker and the chances of getting any paperwork).
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southwestern737
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I am sorry I ever ask this group for help, I was only trying to get a print for someone who doesn't have computer access and needs the print so his club will alow him to run his engine, Not steal a print, not build a boiler. I should have known better, it seems that 95% of responses on this site have nothing to do with the original request.
Brent
Brent