QCTP Tool Holders

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

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GlennW
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Post by GlennW » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:55 pm

schwabw wrote: I splurged on a 2" import dial (the longer ones get pricey), but find myself working close enough to the chuck that there is not always room to mount it. Is there a good way to cheat on that by moving the compound or something?
Bill
Here's a mod I did to my old lathe over 30 years ago for working close to the chuck. Your lathe may be completely different, but this may give you an idea.

It was done in a hurry out of necessity and I never got around to making a nicer one to eliminate the small amount of sine error which is really negligeable. Note the four holes spaced 1" apart to attach the indicator to adjust it to different ranges of carriage movement. It's attached with a screw through the lug on the back of the indicator.

Image

It easily flips up out of the way whan not needed so you don't crach the indicator. (I've only done that about a dozen times :oops: )

Image

Here is another handy use of a QCTP! Attach the indicator and arm to a tool holder.

Image

Another option is just a small square steel plate held by the tool holder to stick mag bases to. Sticking them to the carriage works too, but if you are turning steel, the mag base collects a pile of chips which this idea eliminates. Plus the indicator is easily oriented using the X Z handwheels.
Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!

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BadDog
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Post by BadDog » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:00 pm

My Rockwell had a ~14" long 1" bar mounted parallel with the lathe axis. It had a sort of "keyway" milled along the length using a ~1/4" ball EM. At each 1" precisely, there was a "divot" in the rounded keyway. The mount was a piece of steel affixed on the bed beside the headstock, and fitted to the bar with a tight but smooth sliding fit. That block was about 2" wide where the bore passed through, and there was a tapped hole perpendicular to the bore axis. In that hole was a knurled knob on top of a spring which pressed on a ball. Loosen it to slide the rod as it clicked from detent to detent every 1". Lock it at a convenient place for mounting a 1" or 2" plunger indicator and your golden. I checked it a few times and it was surprisingly accurate in the detent location, generally within a few thou, never more (or even close to) than 0.010. If you need more accuracy, it can be had, but the detents were good enough for most of my steps and other locating needs.

I also have a cheap magnetic articulated arm mounted on a tool holder (the otherwise near useless "bump knurler" that came with the kit) to dial pieces just as shown. I use it ALL the time...
Russ
Master Floor Sweeper

schwabw
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Post by schwabw » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:07 pm

Harold, all,

Thanks for the information, photos, etc.! I have a couple of weeks on the sale, and might even decide to pass on this cycle. The indexable QC looks nice. The only snag is that Enco tech support suggested I go for the larger of the two applicable posts to have freedom on the height adjustment. I suspect I would want to go larger on the indexable post too, and that would mean even more money :shock:

I will think about it some and perhaps decide to "settle" for the Phase II. If I'm not sure, I will probably stick with what I have; another sale will come along. Either way, I greatly appreciate knowing what's out there.

With my car it's easy: fix it and keep it. Other things always seem to involve tradeoffs. Thanks again!

Bill

lakeside53
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Post by lakeside53 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:20 pm

I received my AXA Phase2 20 minutes ago.. I can live with most if its warts, but I shook my head when looking at the t-nut post and top nut.

Do they thead this stuff by hand when stoned?? BOTH the lower threads (into the t-nut) AND the top nut are drunken.. the top nut sits 20 thou off level when tightend down.. Gheeze guys, get your crap together...


Grumble grumble... I'll make my own post and buy a Teco flange nut...


Good news... at $169 with 5 tool adapters, the tool post was basically "free"..

Harold_V
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Post by Harold_V » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:45 pm

lakeside53 wrote:Grumble grumble... I'll make my own post and buy a Teco flange nut...
Chuckle!

Hey, what do ya expect for cheap? :lol:

That problem could work to your advantage. You may be able to make a plate that fits the compound better---slightly thicker and wider, to spread forces well. Not sure I know what I'm saying-----haven't seen one of the things you got.

Bet you like it better than the old lantern tool post!

Harold

lakeside53
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Post by lakeside53 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:02 pm

Not elegant, but sturdy! Just a 6x4x2 block of A36 (and a few hours of machining) ... I'll use this for anything that doesn't require the compound.

Phase II... I fixed their drunkeness by making my own bolt out of a piece of hex - 12L14.. Actually, I made two.. misread the major diameter table... :x

So... they say the hole is 9/16. Sure... I make my new post 10 thou less than 9/16.. it slides in 3/4 of the way and jambs. grrr... The inner sleeve must have been contracted out to the local high school. Their boring bar chattered about 2.5 inches in and the hole was rough and tapered. I'll make up a nice new sleeve one day..

I fixed that with my new boring bar holder... and my garage sale find - 1/2 inch solid carbide bar.. here's a pic while I was testing it..
Attachments
DSC_8064 (Medium).JPG
V10P - boring bar holder on compound. Holder - A36 with 1/2 inch Circle carbide bar
DSC_8066 (Medium).JPG
AXA on V10P. Compound replaced with base block of A36.
Last edited by lakeside53 on Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Harold_V
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Post by Harold_V » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:07 pm

lakeside53 wrote:my garage sale find - 1/2 inch soild carbide bar..
Excellent! I have one as well, along with a 3/8". They're hard to beat.

Nice job, by the way.

Harold

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Michael_Moore
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Post by Michael_Moore » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:31 am

I've got a Multifix brochure on my website in this folder:

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/meta ... xbrochure/

FWIW, a friend with a Romi CNC lathe wasn't happy with the repeatability of the Aloris toolpost he had and I loaned him an extra Multifix toolpost I had to try out. I ended up selling that to him.

I do have some of the Chinese toolholders for the Multifix and he tried those out and said he couldn't see any problems with them, but he felt more comfortable going with the "real deal" holders for his lathe. They work fine for me.

The Multifix holders are unlikely to be made in a home shop, unlike the Aloris style. The are also a bit on the bulky side (IMO). But I've found that the few professional machinists I know, who have things like HLVH, SAG 12 and Mori Seiki lathes (like mine) all have Multifix toolposts on them.

That doesn't mean that others aren't as good, but the Multifix style does seem to have a bit of a following.

cheers,
Michael

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Rich_Carlstedt
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Post by Rich_Carlstedt » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:17 pm

Michael
I am sort of shocked at your statement about an Aloris not
holding repeatablity.
Can you share a few pieces of info.

Was this a real Aloris (brand), or just "Aloris style" ?
Was he using Aloris holders, or some of other make ?
Was the post/holder too small for his Romni ?
How old was the post ?
Did he use a Aloris Mounting method ?

thought I would ask as I have never heard this on a real Aloris
and I am not trying to detract from the good reputation of the Multifix
Rich

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Michael_Moore
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Post by Michael_Moore » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:51 pm

Hi Rich,

It was Ross (AlfaGTA) at PM. Here are some posts he made about it:


http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/sh ... p?p=224318
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/sh ... p?p=386939
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/sh ... p?p=458877
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/sh ... p?p=124574
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/sh ... p?p=502943
On my machine i set it up to use the MultiFix tool post system. I found that with the Aloris i could not get the parts to repeat in size (within .0005').
As to repeat the holders are much better than the Aloris. I can switch between any of 20 tool holders and 10 boring/drilling holders and hold .0002 in length and diameter.
Ross undoubtedly works to a higher standard of precision than I'm often capable of measuring. :)

cheers,
Michael

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GlennW
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Post by GlennW » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:07 pm

Certainly entitled to his opinion and I'm not desputing his claims, but there is always more to the story!!

Here is a quote from him:

"I made a riser to fit on the cross slide (no compound) and fitted an Aloris CXA"

Did he use the same "riser" with the Multifix?

He also claimed it was rotating when drilling with a chuck on the CXA tool post! Does not sound like precision work to me as it had to have a lot of force on it to rotate. Couple that with the riser and I see possible problems right away.

May have nothing to do with it, but it sounds a little suspicious.

There was also another guy on there that constantly claimed that Wolhaupter boring/facing heads were inferior and he didn't trust them for boring.

The only repeatability problems I've had with my Aloris were self induced when not properly cleaning the post and holder before installing the holder when just doing general work.
Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!

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Michael_Moore
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Post by Michael_Moore » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:11 pm

Hi Glenn,
Did he use the same "riser" with the Multifix?
It has been some time since I was last at his shop, but I'd presume it was the same riser though possibly modified a bit if the Multifix and Aloris heights were slightly different. With the CNC there's no need for a compound but you've got to get the toolpost up to height somehow.

He also claimed it was rotating when drilling with a chuck on the CXA tool post! Does not sound like precision work to me as it had to have a lot of force on it to rotate. Couple that with the riser and I see possible problems right away.
" I found that with the Aloris i could not get the parts to repeat in size (within .0005')" doesn't sound like he's referring to drilling which I wouldn't think many people are going to consider a precision operation. I think in those posts he also mentioned something about the Multifix having dowels or keys in the bottom of the toolpost that the Aloris lacks.

I've seen the work his firm turns out and people are lined up years in advance to pay them very significant sums to work on their hugely expensive vintage racecars (eg: there was a Ferrari flat 12 ex-Sheckter GP car in the shop one time I was there and they do Cosworth stuff for people around the world). If the Multifix wasn't an improvement (and in some of those threads he mentions the drawbacks he sees to the Multifix) I doubt he'd have switched.
There was also another guy on there that constantly claimed that Wolhaupter boring/facing heads were inferior and he didn't trust them for boring.
I think Ross has multiple Wolhaupters so that doesn't seem to be an issue.
The only repeatability problems I've had with my Aloris were self induced when not properly cleaning the post and holder before installing the holder when just doing general work.
I wish my house was as clean as Ross keeps his equipment. :)

What can I say? He ran them back to back on the same lathe and found differences that appear to be only tenths, but that were significant enough for his work that he made the expensive switch.

My HSM doesn't need that level but then Ross works on things that cost more than my small house in San Francisco. If he validated the differences to his satisfaction I'd hardly be the one qualified to be pointing out perceived errors in the process to him.

cheers,
Michael

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