Spark arrester design
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Spark arrester design
Hello all,
Fire season is upon us here in the Northwest. Almost 1000 wildland fires in Washington and Oregon since January.
I’d like to find a way to operate my coal-fired Ottaway this summer, if possible.
Anybody have suggestions or a design for a spark arrester that I could fit to a smokestack?
Thanks much,
Glenn
Fire season is upon us here in the Northwest. Almost 1000 wildland fires in Washington and Oregon since January.
I’d like to find a way to operate my coal-fired Ottaway this summer, if possible.
Anybody have suggestions or a design for a spark arrester that I could fit to a smokestack?
Thanks much,
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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Re: Spark arrester design
On my 2.5" scale 4-6-0 - stainless steel mesh.
Re: Spark arrester design
Glenn,
Yes you'll need an SS mesh, something with a fine enough screen to not let embers pass through, but course enough wire that it doesn't burn up in short order.
Yes you'll need an SS mesh, something with a fine enough screen to not let embers pass through, but course enough wire that it doesn't burn up in short order.
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Re: Spark arrester design
Marty, what mesh size are you using? Does your design inhibit draft to much?
Thanks
Glenn
Thanks
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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- Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:50 pm
- Location: Michigan, USA
Re: Spark arrester design
Glenn, I don't remember what mesh size it is. I bought the material at least 4 years ago. This is the second spark arrestor I've made from a square foot of material. I think it was 4 x 4 mesh. I do know I made the net area through the openings 1 1/2 times the area of the stack. It doesn't seem to restrict the exhaust.
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Re: Spark arrester design
Thanks Marty, the only thing I was able to find locally is some bronze “hardware cloth”. Maybe 1/8” mesh size. Hardware store also had some 1/4” galvanized screen, but it didn’t look durable enuf. And way to large to capture embers. The cloth is Probably to fine a mesh size, but at least it’s a starting point. I’ll give it a try, using your dimensions.
Glenn
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Re: Spark arrester design
I think I used 6 X 6 mesh size stainless wire cloth from McMaster. It has openings that are about 1/8” wide. Seems pretty effective. But then, I live in the Southeast!
Dan Watson
Chattanooga, TN
Chattanooga, TN
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Re: Spark arrester design
Do these things really work? Last time I was running at night I saw a lot of spark going up through the stack and cinder trap... which makes me ask how effective they are. Here the one on my engine.
The Costagon cabbage stack traps cylinder by deflecting the flow of air, which I would think is a more effective means to trap sparks than screening through a screen filter. This makes me wonder, is the functional component inside the stack screen track that is being missed here?
JP
The Costagon cabbage stack traps cylinder by deflecting the flow of air, which I would think is a more effective means to trap sparks than screening through a screen filter. This makes me wonder, is the functional component inside the stack screen track that is being missed here?
JP
John Pennington
Logging meets that actually move logs
Project
2 Mich-Cal Shays
Allen 4-4-0 Narrow Gauge Conversion
Two Reading A5a Camelback 0-4-0
USRA 0-6-0
Clishay
4 Western Wheeled Scraper NG Dump Cars
N&W 4-8-2
ICM 2-10-2
4 Modern Stake Cars
L&N Caboose
4 Big Four Conversion Gondolas
Like I'm actually gonna build all this stuff
Logging meets that actually move logs
Project
2 Mich-Cal Shays
Allen 4-4-0 Narrow Gauge Conversion
Two Reading A5a Camelback 0-4-0
USRA 0-6-0
Clishay
4 Western Wheeled Scraper NG Dump Cars
N&W 4-8-2
ICM 2-10-2
4 Modern Stake Cars
L&N Caboose
4 Big Four Conversion Gondolas
Like I'm actually gonna build all this stuff
Re: Spark arrester design
A screen will not stop 100% of the sparks. But it will catch the bigger ones that are most likely to reach the ground and start a fire. A centrifugal arrestor such a Radley & Hunter stack or a Baldwin Rushton stack is designed to swirl the sparks around internally, until they disintegrate into smaller pieces and burn up.
The larger cinders, having more mass, are trapped while swirling along the inside surface of the stack, while the smaller ones (with lower mass) are ejected out of the stack or drop down into the hopper, to be dumped out later.
The larger cinders, having more mass, are trapped while swirling along the inside surface of the stack, while the smaller ones (with lower mass) are ejected out of the stack or drop down into the hopper, to be dumped out later.
Dan Watson
Chattanooga, TN
Chattanooga, TN
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Re: Spark arrester design
On an earlier thread a couple of people who have operated these conical shaped stacks on full sized locomotives said they did not work, as the shape and various apparatus inside the stack kills draft. Some do indeed capture sparks, but renders the boiler more or less useless. Another sidelight I remember from long ago is this style was reportedly developed early to mid 1800’s for wood burning locos, which produced a greater shower of embers from the burning wood than coal. Of all the patents issued for these stack designs, none seem to have prospered in actual use.
Marty Knox and a couple of local guys at the hardware store indeed have said hardware cloth will capture sparks, but tends to clog up very quickly due to the oily nature of coal smoke. So needs frequent cleaning.
I plan to experiment next week, and intend to graduate to slightly larger mesh size if necessary, hoping not to burn down the east side of the county during my engine trials.
Glenn
Marty Knox and a couple of local guys at the hardware store indeed have said hardware cloth will capture sparks, but tends to clog up very quickly due to the oily nature of coal smoke. So needs frequent cleaning.
I plan to experiment next week, and intend to graduate to slightly larger mesh size if necessary, hoping not to burn down the east side of the county during my engine trials.
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Re: Spark arrester design
Glenn, there is a place on the valley highway in Auburn called McNichols, they make all kinds of mesh. Yes I'll admit I have zero live steam experience, but in my industry we have built them for anything from generators of many sizes to stack flares for refineries and power plants. The later have gone to more exotic catalytic type materials now so we don't do much of that work anymore though. I've also dealt with many of them in my dirt bike and car racing days as many of the events ran in Eastern Washington and Oregon required spark arrestors. It was a bummer to get one with galvanized or steel mesh as it burned out quickly. I remember this because my Dad roasted one, and got DQ'd when the checkpoint workers "test stick" went unhindered up the exhaust pipe. The rotary engine in the race car ran horribly hot and burned up everything, optimum exhaust temp was just under 1700*. I never came up with anything that would last, just had to fabricate these rings that would bolt in with the mesh in them and replace it every 2-3 events.
McNichols lists the % opening on the product, so you can get a fairly tight large wire mesh, and then size it such that you have enough open area that it won't restrict your stack. The link below would be a good product, course enough wire that it should last a while, and a small enough opening that should stop most of the sparks. Being this is a from a roll, you should be able to buy a sample or small piece pretty reasonably.
Heat flow through a tube or stack tends to focus the heat in the center, so some sort of diffuser that puts a *little* twist on flow could even out the heat and help the mesh last without inhibiting flow.
You are correct that the conical shaped stacks/tips/arrestors do not flow as well. There was one offered for motorcycles with a propeller type thing inside it, a tube of mesh and packing, and then a cone of mesh inside the exit end to stop the sparks. I wasted my money on it my 2-stroke didn't like it. Because the 4-stroke motors seem to like some back pressure, I was able to sell it to a friend and at least got some of my money back.
https://www.mcnichols.com/wire-mesh/squ ... -ss-380647
McNichols lists the % opening on the product, so you can get a fairly tight large wire mesh, and then size it such that you have enough open area that it won't restrict your stack. The link below would be a good product, course enough wire that it should last a while, and a small enough opening that should stop most of the sparks. Being this is a from a roll, you should be able to buy a sample or small piece pretty reasonably.
Heat flow through a tube or stack tends to focus the heat in the center, so some sort of diffuser that puts a *little* twist on flow could even out the heat and help the mesh last without inhibiting flow.
You are correct that the conical shaped stacks/tips/arrestors do not flow as well. There was one offered for motorcycles with a propeller type thing inside it, a tube of mesh and packing, and then a cone of mesh inside the exit end to stop the sparks. I wasted my money on it my 2-stroke didn't like it. Because the 4-stroke motors seem to like some back pressure, I was able to sell it to a friend and at least got some of my money back.
https://www.mcnichols.com/wire-mesh/squ ... -ss-380647
Re: Spark arrester design
When we rebuilt the 90-ton Climax Hillcrest Lumber #10 in 1982, The Boss insisted we install the Radley and Hunter stack on the new smokebox.
It was TERRIBLE, causing big steaming problems due to the poor drafting. We could not produce sufficient steam to get the light locomotive up the grades.
And thick black smoke just swirled up like a wimpy tornado. We had TOLD The Boss this would be the case, but noooo. He had to have that R&H stack.
As soon as his back was turned we installed the shotgun stack that also came with the locomotive.
Then we could make steam!
I understand that in later years Jack Anderson removed the center turbulator device from that R&H stack, and installed it just for looks.
Smart Guy.
~RN
It was TERRIBLE, causing big steaming problems due to the poor drafting. We could not produce sufficient steam to get the light locomotive up the grades.
And thick black smoke just swirled up like a wimpy tornado. We had TOLD The Boss this would be the case, but noooo. He had to have that R&H stack.
As soon as his back was turned we installed the shotgun stack that also came with the locomotive.
Then we could make steam!
I understand that in later years Jack Anderson removed the center turbulator device from that R&H stack, and installed it just for looks.
Smart Guy.
~RN