Pre heating boiler water

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cp4449
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Location: Granada Hills

Pre heating boiler water

Post by cp4449 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:24 pm

Has anyone ever pre heater the water for the boiler, and if so, how did you doing? I was thinking about 4 coils of 1/4" copper in the smoke box. Or is building a external tube heater better? I have seen a stub line from the beachhead with just steam in a line in the tender.

Thoughts?
Christopher P. Mahony
Los Angeles Live Steamers
1 inch scale member

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ChuckHackett-844
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Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 3:54 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Pre heating boiler water

Post by ChuckHackett-844 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:01 pm

In my old Hudson (now sold) I had 6 or 7 (can't remember exactly) 1/4" copper coils that preheated the water from a duplex steam water pump. There was a bleed valve between the coil and the boiler check. I could get steam out of the bleed valve! So, yes they can recover a lot of heat! :D
Regards,

Chuck Hackett, UP Northern 844, Mich-Cal Shay #2
Owner MiniRail Solutions (http://www.MiniRailSolutions.com)
"By the work, One knows the workman"

hoppercar
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Re: Pre heating boiler water

Post by hoppercar » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:49 pm

I have an elesco feed water heater on top of my smoke box. The casting I got from Howard gorin....I run the water from my axle pump thru it. It doesn't take exhaust steam off the cylinders like the real ones did, I just have a valve in the cab, and turn the steam in when I want. The condensate, drains out of a tube down low between the rails. Is there any help or improvement in performance???....who knows, I can't tell any difference

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NP317
Posts: 2015
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Location: Northern Oregon

Re: Pre heating boiler water

Post by NP317 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:03 pm

I use the injectors to heat the water!
Other than that, I do not have water pre-heaters.

Unless I am going to enter a British Economy Contest, I prefer to avoid the added complexity of heaters.
'Like to keep it simple.
~RN

Asteamhead
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Location: Germany, Duesseldorf

Re: Pre heating boiler water

Post by Asteamhead » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:08 am

cp4449,
Please have a look onto a working open :!: feedwater economizer similar to the Elesco type.
Built for my scale model of DB class 44 of 5 " gauge this worked for years. Exaust steam is used from both water and air pumps exclusivly. This will heat the feedwater to about 80 °C. Should work with an axle pump, using some exaust steam as well.
Twisting two copper tubes in parallel on 1 " round material will do a fine job as well if used cross fed (exaust steam across cold water).

Best regards
Asteamhead
Attachments
Class 44 economizer_1512red.jpg
Overal look from top. Water feed to the check valve is to be seen above.
Class 44 economizer_1513red.jpg
Close look. Several steam inlets are to be seen.
The outside tube is filled by exaust steam. This will heat the smaller water tubes inside welded to the tube plate on the right.

michaellynn2
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:49 am

Re: Pre heating boiler water

Post by michaellynn2 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:26 pm

I built a Southern ps4 Pacific with a working Elesco feedwater heater. It does not have the cylinder exhaust, but absorbs the heat from the smoke box. I do not have an axle water pump but use a hand pump in one of the water legs that surround the coal bunker. The hand pump can be used often to put water in the boiler. It does a great job of preheating the water to the point of not being able to put your hand on it during the heating of the incoming water from the tender. I also have two injectors to feed the boiler. My goal is to preheat all of the water going into the boiler to prevent a temperature shock.
michael george

Berkman
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Re: Pre heating boiler water

Post by Berkman » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:45 pm

What does the inside of the elesco look like ? Is it simply an open tank or actually a bunch of coil heat exchangers like the prototype etc on your PS4?

Does anyone use hot tap water to fill the boiler before you light off when firing up ?

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Fender
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Location: Chattanooga TN

Re: Pre heating boiler water

Post by Fender » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:17 pm

Berkman wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:45 pm
What does the inside of the elesco look like ? Is it simply an open tank or actually a bunch of coil heat exchangers like the prototype etc on your PS4?
In prototype practice, an Elesco feedwater heater was of the "closed" type, meaning the steam transfers heat through the walls of tubes containing the water. Conversely, a Worthington "open" type feedwater heater, mingles the steam and feedwater together.

On edit, I realize your question was about the model. Sorry.
Dan Watson

Asteamhead
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Re: Pre heating boiler water

Post by Asteamhead » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:50 pm

Hello Fender,
You're right! Of course both the Elesco and the Knorr system are of the 'closed' type. Sorry for using the wrong expression 'open'! :(
A reliable 'open' type feedwater heater like the Worthington or Heinl type is still waiting to realization in model size! Problems are sucking hot or even boiling water by means of a piston pump in combination with a working control of the cold water supply. Carrying over some steam oil into the boiler is another problem.
I wonder if :?: anybody will try? I'm still working on a solution for my new A. :wink:

Asteamhead
Attachments
A front with 6SA feedwater system.red.jpg
6SA feedwater system, yet still as dummy closed type

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Fender
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Re: Pre heating boiler water

Post by Fender » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:02 pm

Asteamhead,
I hadn’t thought about those problems. I guess that’s why the Worthington had two pumps, a cold-water and a hot-water pump. Maybe loofah sponges could be used to remove the oil, like is done with steam launches?
Dan Watson

michaellynn2
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Re: Pre heating boiler water

Post by michaellynn2 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:07 pm

My Elesco looks like a mini boiler inside....
michael george

michaellynn2
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Re: Pre heating boiler water

Post by michaellynn2 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:16 pm

On my Elesco, the flues inside the heater accept exhaust steam from the cylinders and exhaust steam from the water and air pump. The flues are surrounded by water to be heated prior to going to the boiler. Also the water in the Elesco is heated via heat from the smoke box gasses contacting the base of the heater. The heater gets the water super hot prior to entering the boiler.
michael george

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