From the ground up

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comebackshane
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:49 am
Location: Georgia

From the ground up

Post by comebackshane »

Hello everyone!!! First let me apologize for the long post but I want to layout my whole story.

I recently retired from the Military and honestly I have hated it... I'm so bored that it's literally driving me crazier than I already am. My shrink told me to find a hobby, so after months and months of sifting through YouTube videos, I decided that Machining would be my ticket. Machining really fits my personality. I like things to be extremely accurate (in my mind this relates as perfect fit and so on) and I love things that are mechanical. I actually think being a watch maker would be awesome but that's a whole other topic entirely. When I decided to do machining I hopped on a few forums and started reading and asking questions. One of the most common questions was, what do I want to build, but I had no answer to this as it wasn't something that I had even thought about (crazy right). I knew that I had no plans of working again, and didn't really want to work in a Job Shop. I found several projects that looked cool (I still may build some or all of them) but most of them were simply building stuff that is useful in a machine shop. So not knowing what to build I headed back to YouTube. After months more looking I came across a guy building a large highly detailed train and it blew me away. When I was in college I worked at a hobby store and fell in love with trains but being in college I had no where to set up a track and as time went on I sort of forgot that I loved trains.

So, I finally decided that 1. I want to do machining, and 2. I want to build a large, highly detailed, working train.... Now where to start???? I started on Facebook. I found some Live steam groups and asked a few questions (how I found this site), I also found a "local" club (going to see them next month). I'm really excited and to be honest so is my wife and family... With all this said I just found out that there is going to be a small hick-up. You see even though I never planned to go back to work the Military had other ideas and requested that I take a job as a contractor for a limited time (over a year but under 2) for a sum of money that I simply could not pass up... So here's my plan. I'm going to narrow down the train I want to build, order the train and all my machine shop gear (while I'm over seas) and come home and start my retirement in earnest.

Trains:
1. My "local" club runs a 7.5" gauge track so I will be building a 7.5" gauge train (makes since to me LOL)
2. I like steamers... This goes back to my love of mechanical things and seeing all the action on the wheels really does it for me
3. I want it big... Not compensating for anything here LOL, but the bigger trains just look better to me and right now, I'm more into the journey than the destination.

Machine Shop:
1. I already own a surface Grinder (old Brown & Sharp 2LB)
2. I already own a very small Sherline lathe/mill combo
3. I already own the most beat up Atlas lathe ever (currently restoring it)
4. I will be ordering a new full size knee mill (likely an ARCA or an Sharp Taiwan made mill)
5. I will be ordering a new full size lathe, I'm thinking a 16x60; is this too big, just right, or not big enough?


One of the trains I really like is a European train 7 1/4 Gauge, how hard is it to convert from 7 1/4 gauge to 7.5? Also, is it weird running a European train on an American track?
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Fender
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Re: From the ground up

Post by Fender »

Best advice I can give you is to visit several tracks, and seek out those people who build their own stuff. They can give you great advice on what is needed. Also, look at what others have built and are running. It will help to refine your own interests. By and large, live steamers are a very eclectic group, so any style is interesting to them.
Dan Watson
Chattanooga, TN
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Fender
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Re: From the ground up

Post by Fender »

Regarding the full-size lathe: I have owned an Atlas lathe for about 45 years. It definitely has its limitations, and having run a 16” lathe, can appreciate its advantages. But the reality is that most of the parts to be made are small. If you have access to a big lathe for wheels and other big jobs, or can farm them out, the smaller lathes are fine for most other tasks.
Dan Watson
Chattanooga, TN
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Dick_Morris
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Re: From the ground up

Post by Dick_Morris »

Knowing what I do now after 45 years in the hobby and owning two mills and four lathes over the years, I'd go with a 12" or maybe 13" lathe. (Not the Craftsman/Atlas, it's a bit light for turning wheels.) Get 3-phase motors and VFDs for the lathe and mill. It's money well spent. Get a DRO for the mill, also money well spent.

A problem with a 16" lathe is that tooling costs more and they take up a lot of space in the shop.
comebackshane
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:49 am
Location: Georgia

Re: From the ground up

Post by comebackshane »

Fender wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:06 pm Regarding the full-size lathe: I have owned an Atlas lathe for about 45 years. It definitely has its limitations, and having run a 16” lathe, can appreciate its advantages. But the reality is that most of the parts to be made are small. If you have access to a big lathe for wheels and other big jobs, or can farm them out, the smaller lathes are fine for most other tasks.
The main reason I was considering a 16" lathe was because the Live Steam Locomotives recommends a 16" for their Challenger and Big Boy (the other 2 trains I'm considering).
RET
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Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:36 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: From the ground up

Post by RET »

Hi comebackshane,

For the full size mill, do you mean Acra instead pf Arca? I looked at the Acra website and their machines are quite impressive, especially when you see they are 2 axis CNC. Even the smallest of them would be more than big enough for your purpose.

I have been doing this since the 1960s and have gradually built up my machine shop over time. You spend half the time equipping and building the shop and the other half building the models and you can literally spend a lifetime doing both. Over the years I have acquired a 13 1/4" x 48" South Bend lathe that was built in 1943, a used Bridgeport vertical mill with a Sony 3 axis readout which I added, a Japanese band saw, a Covel tool & cutter grinder which I sometimes use as a surface grinder and a CNC milling machine which I built myself using the Sherline steppers and Linux software. About 15 years ago I bought a little turnkey CNC mill from Sherline and it was a good thing to learn on, but about 5 years ago, I decided I needed something bigger and heavier. This has turned out to be a very rewarding project and well worth the time it took to build it. The Sherline control system has four axis capability and I make use of all four axes, but usually only two or three at one time. I find that the CNC mill greatly increases my capability; things that may be difficult or impossible to do conventionally can be easy with CNC.

I've always been interested in steam locomotives; while not being very efficient, the full size ones are very impressive. If you look on the chaski website under Live Steam, about 2 or 3 pages back now, you will see a thread called "Union Pacific Big Boy in 3 1/2" Gauge." That will give you a good idea of what we are doing.

If you are starting from scratch, you will need to learn speeds and feeds, how to sharpen tool bits, drills etc. and a lot more. You are also going to have to decide what you want to make. As Fender says, go to your local club and talk to people. You will learn a lot.

Because your local club runs 7 1/2 gauge, you are likely in the Western US, or maybe Canada. In Eastern North America as well as everywhere else in the world it is 7 1/4" gauge. The only gauge that isn't messed up is 3 1/2." That is the same everywhere. 4 3/4" is 5" everywhere except in North America. Its still nice to know that you can build something here and take it to Australia and run it there (unless it happens to be 7 1/2" or 4 3/4"). Apparently 7 1/2" would have been 7 1/4" except that somebody hit the wrong key on the typewriter back in the 1950s.

Welcome to the hobby. At times it can be frustrating, but it can also be very rewarding and give you a great feeling of accomplishment when you have made something and lo and behold, it actually works!

Richard Trounce.
RET
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Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:36 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: From the ground up

Post by RET »

Hi,

If you are considering a Big Boy or Challenger, go to the Union Pacific Historical Society website. There you can buy on a CD all the full size drawings to build either a Challenger or a Big Boy. Those CDs are one of the best bargains you will ever see anywhere. Also use Google to look up Tom Miller's Big Boy. It is now in Australia and has been regauged from 7 1/2" to 7 1/4" to run down there. There are U tube videos and pictures from when it was here at Tom's home.

Just be careful. Big Boys and Challengers are very challenging projects and can take a lifetime to build. Severn Lamb in England built Tom's Big Boy and they did a wonderful job.

Richard Trounce.
Last edited by RET on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Shields
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Re: From the ground up

Post by Bill Shields »

start with something small..

you have NO IDEA how much work it is to build an articulated locomotive and how many decades it will take to finish if you are just getting started.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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Fender
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Re: From the ground up

Post by Fender »

One thing to consider is, what your goals are. For some people, the objective is to complete the locomotive, so they have something to run. A means to an end. They want the camaraderie of participating in and sharing a common interest. Others are more interested in the building project itself, and whether or not the loco operates, is secondary.
There is no right or wrong answer. But determine for yourself which is more important to YOU. For sure, go to a track, get yourself sooty, maybe burn your fingers a little, talk with the other guys, and then maybe you’ll know the answer.
Dan Watson
Chattanooga, TN
comebackshane
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:49 am
Location: Georgia

Re: From the ground up

Post by comebackshane »

RET wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:56 pm Hi comebackshane,

For the full size mill, do you mean Acra instead pf Arca? I looked at the Acra website and their machines are quite impressive, especially when you see they are 2 axis CNC. Even the smallest of them would be more than big enough for your purpose.

I have been doing this since the 1960s and have gradually built up my machine shop over time. You spend half the time equipping and building the shop and the other half building the models and you can literally spend a lifetime doing both. Over the years I have acquired a 13 1/4" x 48" South Bend lathe that was built in 1943, a used Bridgeport vertical mill with a Sony 3 axis readout which I added, a Japanese band saw, a Covel tool & cutter grinder which I sometimes use as a surface grinder and a CNC milling machine which I built myself using the Sherline steppers and Linux software. About 15 years ago I bought a little turnkey CNC mill from Sherline and it was a good thing to learn on, but about 5 years ago, I decided I needed something bigger and heavier. This has turned out to be a very rewarding project and well worth the time it took to build it. The Sherline control system has four axis capability and I make use of all four axes, but usually only two or three at one time. I find that the CNC mill greatly increases my capability; things that may be difficult or impossible to do conventionally can be easy with CNC.

I've always been interested in steam locomotives; while not being very efficient, the full size ones are very impressive. If you look on the chaski website under Live Steam, about 2 or 3 pages back now, you will see a thread called "Union Pacific Big Boy in 3 1/2" Gauge." That will give you a good idea of what we are doing.

If you are starting from scratch, you will need to learn speeds and feeds, how to sharpen tool bits, drills etc. and a lot more. You are also going to have to decide what you want to make. As Fender says, go to your local club and talk to people. You will learn a lot.

Because your local club runs 7 1/2 gauge, you are likely in the Western US, or maybe Canada. In Eastern North America as well as everywhere else in the world it is 7 1/4" gauge. The only gauge that isn't messed up is 3 1/2." That is the same everywhere. 4 3/4" is 5" everywhere except in North America. Its still nice to know that you can build something here and take it to Australia and run it there (unless it happens to be 7 1/2" or 4 3/4"). Apparently 7 1/2" would have been 7 1/4" except that somebody hit the wrong key on the typewriter back in the 1950s.

Welcome to the hobby. At times it can be frustrating, but it can also be very rewarding and give you a great feeling of accomplishment when you have made something and lo and behold, it actually works!

Richard Trounce.
Looks like I fat fingered it, but yes ACRA is the Mill I'm looking at, but I won't be doing the CNC version, I think I'll stick to a manual mill (at least at first). I will add a DRO, power feeds, and power draw bar to the mill I choose as well as a coolant system. My thought on CNC is that it's great and maybe some day I'll get into it, but my feeling is that I really need to know the basics of doing something manually inside and out before I step into the CNC realm. I also think that I'm going to take a few classes at my local trade school when I get back. I really want to take a class dealing with reading plans, sharpening (as you mentioned) and other basics.

Not to toot my own horn but I think I'm a pretty smart guy and I have a great ability to pick things up rather quickly. I think just watching YouTube creators like Abom79 and Oxtools has taught me a lot. I think that getting in there and building something will teach me an awful lot. I do think that I'm going to make some shop tooling before I dig into my train build.

As for what I want to build... Well I took my Wife and Daughter out to dinner tonight and let them pick out my first train... I will be doing the Live Steam Locomotives Big Boy based on the Challenger drawings and castings. I know this is ambitious, and I know I'm really jumping head first into the extreme deep end, but I know a couple of things. Firstly, I know that I won't give up (I'm not that type of person). I also know that I have resources that can help me if and when I get into trouble. I spoke with Roger from LSL a while back and he's there to help and I'm sure once I get hooked up with my local club there will be guys there that can help as well. On that note I live in the SouthEast (Georgia to be specific) and "our" track is 7 1/2" gauge.
comebackshane
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:49 am
Location: Georgia

Re: From the ground up

Post by comebackshane »

RET wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:12 pm Hi,

If you are considering a Big Boy or Challenger, go to the Union Pacific Historical Society website. There you can buy on a CD all the full size drawings to build either a Challenger or a Big Boy. Those CDs are one of the best bargains you will ever see anywhere. Also use Google to look up Tom Miller's Big Boy. It is now in Australia and has been regauged from 7 1/2" to 7 1/4" to run down there. There are U tube videos and pictures from when it was here at Tom's home.

Just be careful. Big Boys and Challengers are very challenging projects and can take a lifetime to build. Severn Lamb in England built Tom's Big Boy and they did a wonderful job.

Richard Trounce.
Thank for the info; are the drawings actual usable drawings that I can have printed full size to work from, or would I still need to buy the drawings from Live Steam Locomotives?
comebackshane
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:49 am
Location: Georgia

Re: From the ground up

Post by comebackshane »

Bill Shields wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:22 pm start with something small..

you have NO IDEA how much work it is to build an articulated locomotive and how many decades it will take to finish if you are just getting started.

I'm sure you're right, but that's exactly what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for a short term project to get me on the tracks, I'm looking for a long term project to keep me busy. If it takes me a decade to finish, well, so be it.
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