titan machinery milling machine defect

Discussion on all milling machines vertical & horizontal, including but not limited to Bridgeports, Hardinge, South Bend, Clausing, Van Norman, including imports.

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zolaj
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titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by zolaj » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:16 am

First of all hello to everyone, as I am new to this forum.

So I joined mostly to get some advice regarding the defect of a table top mill and drill from titan machinery that I recently purchased new.

The model of the machine is 20 LV it has a 700 by 180 mm table, morse 2 taper and a 600w dc motor. Its pretty much the same as the ones from other companys, like optimum, quantum, holzzman...

So I got the machine home yesterday and realised that the head can not tilt to horizontal position as the cable is in the way; it gets severly pinched past the 45 degree mark, that does not concern me as it is easily fixable. But when I was fiddling with the head I noticed some scratches on the surface of the vertical slide, so I removed the mill head and found what to me seems as horrific damage. Some one has grinded all the way around the pivot around which the head rotates, and to me it seems that it has been done with an angle grinder or a similar tool. There are gouges and cuts all over, and most of the nicely machined surface upon which the head rests is, in my opinion destroyed.

Why or by whom has this butchering been done puzzles me but after much thinking I have theory. On the pivot there is a machined grove around the middle point; I can not see the reason for it, and it also appears that the person was trying and somewhat did cut a grove in the bottom corner of the pivot, basically a clearance groove, and destroyed the surfaces around it in the process. Other theory is that it has been done to remove rust, as I have seen marks of what appears to be scotch brite on the edges of the table and some other places and it seems to me it was done to remove rust.

Anyway I am new to machining, I have the mini lathe which I bought used for awhile now And I am very pleased with it, especially considering the price, its by no means perfect, but I acctualy think it is well made (except the finishing touches and tunning, which i dont mind doing myself) The only thing I dislike is the poor design or placement of the gibs, they should be on the opposite side and it would make a world off difference for the better.

So I was rather confident purchasing a chinese mill after good impressions with the mini lathe and a used one at that.
I contacted the merchant regarding this defect but no response so far.

English is not my first language and machining stuff is still new to me; so if anything is incomprehensible, just ask and I will try to explain better.
I have attached a couple of photos of the damage I am talking about.

My questions for you are:

Is this a common thing and was I just really lucky with my mini lathe, or unlucky with the mill? Or both?
Is it reasonable for me to demand a refund or another defectless machine from the merchant?
How much will this damage affect the performance of the machine if at all? And in what way?
Am I possibly just nitpicking here? (I honestly believe I am not)
What would you do in my situation? How would you deal with the merchant?

Thank you for your time and help.

Cheers.
Attachments
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zolaj
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:21 am

Re: titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by zolaj » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:35 am

Hi, here are a few possibly better photos.

In the first photo the little darker spot on the "ring" between 30 and 40 degree mark is the only remanent of the original machined surface; the whole inner "ring" is ground (not in a good way) and the better part of the larger outer "ring" and the there are some gouges and cuts also on the outer surfaces.
Attachments
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DSCF0824.JPG
DSCF0825.JPG

johnfreese
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Re: titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by johnfreese » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:26 pm

I suspect the head may have been out of tram in Y and with no adjustments for that condition someone rtied to fix it with a grinder. If you bought this machine from a dealer you should definitely return it.

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SteveM
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Re: titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by SteveM » Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:28 pm

I agree with John.

There's no way a precision surface on which the machine depends for accuracy should look like that.

Even if it actually worked to get it trammed, the rough surface would wear out shortly and it would probably be worse than it originally was.

Steve

pete
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Re: titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by pete » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:47 pm

I'd also agree with John & Steve. A fast assembly floor fix when the machine couldn't be properly trammed in is my guess as well. Fixing minor design issues and re-machining better parts for various minor reasons is one thing and maybe that might be expected on some of this equipment. No doubt this problem could also be fixed, but this looks to be a major defect that would be more than costly to repair what someone butchered. I'd for sure be sending that one back.

What does amaze me with some of what shows up on these forums is there must be zero time allowed for checking the factory's machining fixture alignments or wear until angle grinder fixes like this by the assembly personnel are required.

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BadDog
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Re: titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by BadDog » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:16 pm

Nothing to add, except another vote advising to send it back.
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RSG
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Re: titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by RSG » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:26 am

I just googled Titan and it appears to be a farm equipment dealer. One thing about dealing with a company that does not specialize in this sort of equipment is they are less likely to understand the issue which is going to make it difficult to plead your case. That said, take it back and if you have access to view another one on the showroom floor, check it before taking it. Short of that, I highly doubt they will be willing to pay to have the component surface ground to correct it! I'd suggest asking for a refund and shop somewhere that sells nothing but this type of machinery as they will understand the problem and be more likely to correct it.
Vision is not seeing things as they are, but as they will be.

Magicniner
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Re: titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by Magicniner » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:12 am

Having looked at photos of the assembled mill (which would be vital for anyone to reach a decision on this) the assumptions here that the ground surface is a precision location one are at best fanciful, that surface is only there because it's part of the bolt retention groove structure, the rear of the head sits flat against the main front vertical flat surface of the column, the marked surface pictured is important in providing fastener tension to fix the head but is inconsequential in head alignment.
It will have been ground to ensure it is low enough not to interfere with the head being pulled up against the main flat vertical surface of the column.
If you send it back for the marks on that circular face the seller will be justified in shipping it back to you and charging you shipping.

whateg0
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Re: titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by whateg0 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:02 pm

Magicniner wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:12 am
Having looked at photos of the assembled mill (which would be vital for anyone to reach a decision on this) the assumptions here that the ground surface is a precision location one are at best fanciful, that surface is only there because it's part of the bolt retention groove structure, the rear of the head sits flat against the main front vertical flat surface of the column, the marked surface pictured is important in providing fastener tension to fix the head but is inconsequential in head alignment.
It will have been ground to ensure it is low enough not to interfere with the head being pulled up against the main flat vertical surface of the column.
If you send it back for the marks on that circular face the seller will be justified in shipping it back to you and charging you shipping.
I think you are wrong. The ring just inside the protractor is where I believe the head sits. This area shows grinding marks from the alleged angle grinder. I don't know that they intended to grind this area. I would suspect that the area on the center boss was raised too much for the head to sit flat against this ring, so they ground it, and in doing so, also scarred this area.
titanmill.jpg
The clamping bolt here will pull that area of the head down against whatever surface is adjacent to the protractor won't it?

Dave

Magicniner
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Re: titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by Magicniner » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:56 am

whateg0 wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:02 pm

The clamping bolt here will pull that area of the head down against whatever surface is adjacent to the protractor won't it?

Dave
No, you are getting hung up on the the fastener and not looking at or considering it's function on contact area of the head with the column.
Note the thickness of the head casting where the fastener passes through it and that the centre line of the fastener is above the bottom edge of the head casting, ask yourself why.
The column casting will have been relief ground specifically to ensure it is low enough for the fastener tension to come into play in clamping the head casting flat to the column, rather than just clamping locally at the fastener site leaving it wobbly.
You could actually neatly relief machine an area to just outside the round slot, that would work very nicely.

Ironman1
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Re: titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by Ironman1 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:48 am

This is a common defect, and I first came across this on a 12x40 belt drive lathe in 1980. It was the first new lathe I had ever owned and I was proud of it.
After using it a while I found out the tailstock and headstock were both pointing up. The cross slide on the tailstock had been machined with an angle grinder. I took off the head, and the bed under the headstock had been machined with an angle grinder also.
I hand scraped the tailstock to level, and have never wanted to do that since.
I stripped the lathe down and took the bed to a machine shop, which refused to do the work. I asked them if I could use a shaper they had to plane off the area under the headstock to level with the bed, as I planned to shim it.
They let me use their shaper, and when I was done they offered me a job as a lathe operator.

The Lathe was accurate after re-assembly.
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Magicniner
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Re: titan machinery milling machine defect

Post by Magicniner » Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:05 am

Ironman1 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:48 am
This is a common defect, and I first came across this on a 12x40 belt drive lathe in 1980. It was the first new lathe I had ever owned and I was proud of it.
After using it a while I found out the tailstock and headstock were both pointing up. The cross slide on the tailstock had been machined with an angle grinder. I took off the head, and the bed under the headstock had been machined with an angle grinder also.
I hand scraped the tailstock to level, and have never wanted to do that since.
I stripped the lathe down and took the bed to a machine shop, which refused to do the work. I asked them if I could use a shaper they had to plane off the area under the headstock to level with the bed, as I planned to shim it.
They let me use their shaper, and when I was done they offered me a job as a lathe operator.

The Lathe was accurate after re-assembly.
There is no measurable fault with the mill in question beyond the owner not liking the look of how clearance has been created for the head to pull up tight to the column slide, it's very common on even good Chinese machines for relief in non-critical areas to be created with a grinder, and from an engineering point of view there's nothing wrong with that.

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